How long in time users can request refund?

[Dreamtheme]

Hello there,

 

Today we received refund message for order made 84 days ago!!! And apparently without any problems whatsoever with the product, the refund message is "client a acheté un autre thème en lieu et place" which means "customer bought another theme instead".

 

According to Addons terms of use with sellers, the guarantee period is 45 days, however we are talking about 84 days here (order made on 07/30/2013).

 

So addons team, please explain to us in plain English, how long in time users can request refund for our products, and for what reasons, because its seems to me that 3 months after the user uses our theme, he decide to use another one, and you refund it like that..

[vekia]

if customer use VISA credit card, customer can send a request to bank for "chargeback" and... read here:

Time limit  There is a time limit on chargeback claims - typically 120 days - which starts from the day you become aware of a problem. There is also an overall cut off point of 540 days for Visa chargeback. Therefore, your deadline for requesting a chargeback is 120 days from discovering you have a problem, or 540 days from the transaction date, whichever comes first.

We can be robbed in the majesty of the law

 

and it's worth to say that it isn't because of prestashop, it's because of VISA

[Dreamtheme]

You are missing the point here - "have a problem", however we are not aware of any problem, no support tickets or anything, just that the user decide to use "another theme" in the note.

So its seems that you can change your theme as you wish and you don't pay for it.

Because this user used our software for almost 3 months and he decided to get a new one with the same money!

 

I wonder if you buy Battlefield 4 for example and after 3 months you have played all the content, you say that you want charge back, will they refund you? Definitely no!

 

Also the texts you refer are not valid for "intangible goods" (digital goods) for a reason.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Dreamtheme (see edit history)

[vekia]

I wonder if you buy Battlefield 4 for example and after 3 months you have played all the content, you say that you want charge back, will they refund you? Definitely no!

 

Also the texts you refer are not valid for "intangible goods" (digital goods) for a reason.

 

Everything depends on law. In my country it isn't possible to get refund for software on CD / DVD with license keys - but you can get it when box with cd is unpacked. You can get also refund when you bought digital file. Wierdy? yes, it is. Card holders are entitled to reimbursement, and there's nothing we can do in this case. Read visa regulations, you will see how stupid the regulations are...

 

im not from prestashop team.

[Dreamtheme]

Well i'm well aware with international regulations, simply because we are selling way to many software online. Including VISA. Visa will be on the seller's side if you provide proof (logs, access etc) you can see at http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/compelling-evidence-dispute-resolution.pdf

 

Also it doesn't really matter the laws in your Country simply because when you buy something online, in terms of law is seen as the customers go to the sellers country, not the other way around, this is for taxation purposes. So In our case we speak about France, and France is part of EU, so the LAW limit is pretty well known - no more then 30 days, the same as PayPal.

 

As i said I'm well aware of all regulations.

[Dreamtheme]

Also there is Refund policy which users must agree, and credit company honor them. See http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/chargeback-management-guidelines-for-visa-merchants.pdf

30 days is the max refund that can be requested unless there is refund policy stating otherwise, which is as legal contracts the user agree upon buying your product (but no lower then legal possible 14 or 30 days).

[vekia]

you've got right, now i understand your point of view, i totally agree with you

[bellini13]

so why did Prestashop allow the refund? and for the reason that the customer choose to purchase a different theme 84 days later.  Thats the customers issue, not the developer who has no way to stop the customer from using the purchased theme anyway.

 

Why did Prestashop not give the merchant a chance to fight the ChargeBack, under what basis does the customer have to request it?  Did they not receive the product as described?  Was it a fraudulent transaction and they are claiming non-receipt or that they did not order it in the first place?

 

Lastly, why is it the developers responsibility here?  Prestashop runs and manages the addon store, if they allow a fraudulent transaction to occur, that's on them.  The developer has no possible way to detect the fraud or prevent it.  The developer does not even know who the customer is, Prestashop hides those details from us.

[moraira]

Like Vekia say it depends of visa, many people don't know, but some EU Banks have 12 month to cancel an online sale. As an online store there are not physical presence (obviously) visa deadlines are immense

[Dreamtheme]

Like Vekia say it depends of visa, many people don't know, but some EU Banks have 12 month to cancel an online sale. As an online store there are not physical presence (obviously) visa deadlines are immense

 

You seems not to read the entire topic or any agreement. See the documents from Visa, MC and PayPal, read their terms please

[Burhan BVK]

In any case, Prestashop has an obligation to include the developer in the refund process. But they constantly provide refunds without ever asking or informing the developer. It is not the visa or paypal, Prestashop addons decides to give refunds, and in several occassions just help people steal modules. I have a few refunds where the customer continued to use the module afterwards, and I could check that with the very little information they provided, it should be much easier for addons to do that.

[Dreamtheme]

Guys now let me explain so there is no confusion.

 

Charge back:

 

charge back occur when the followin criteria is met:

 

Fraud transactions, Items not delivered, Item not as described and similiar. Indeed chargeback can occur year and a half from the transaction.

 

Refund:

 

Refund however is entirely different thing. Refund can be partial or full, it may be for reasons that customer is not satisfied with product and so on.

 

All credit card and bank company honor your refund policy when it is displayed on visible place. Your refund policy may not offer refund at all, and everyone should honor this.

 

 

In our case, we are not speaking about charge back but for a refund, the reasons which are not clear enough.

 

What really bother me here is that PrestaShop addons market does not have Refund policy at all. In http://addons.prestashop.com/TandC%20Addons%20customers%20the%2005-03-2013.pdf they state that there is refund if a contributor don't answer or help a customer, and that validation is 30 days.

 

However, nowhere is written, what is the time limit for the refund request, for example 30 days from purchase and so on. There is also missing, for what criteria you may request refund other than lack of support, for example if you don't like the product but it is working and it is what it is described, can you request refund.

 

In simple words, PrestaShop addons market don't have a refund policy in the terms of agreement.

 

However, in the Seller's terms of agreement, PrestaShop state that they will hold funds for 45 days as guarantee against refund or charge back requests. So we can conclude that the refund period is 45 days, with maximum 30 days to validate the request this make 75 days at maximum.

 

And here is overdue with 9 days. So my question to PrestaShop addons is, why it is refunded, on what reasons and why in this time limit.

 

It will be good if PrestaShop after 3-4 years to make a refund policy at last and make it visible to all and to clarify this. Because without clear refund policy we can only guess what is going on.

[bellini13]

I'm very interested in the reply to DreamTheme's concern.  Not looking for a moderators 'opinion' here (sorry), looking for a formal response from Prestashop that manage the addon's stores and policies.

 

DreamTheme lays out very reasonable and concerning issues that need to be addressed. 

[vekia]

 

 

they choose to have a forum moderator guess at the issue

 

 

Not looking for a moderators 'opinion' here (sorry)

 

this is forum and i can reply here the same as you can. Fact that I'm a moderator does not mean that i can't have own opinion. I am not an employee of prestashop, it's only my own opinion.

[moraira]

You seems not to read the entire topic or any agreement. See the documents from Visa, MC and PayPal, read their terms please

 

I think I have not well explained, the director of my bank (one of the most important in Spain) told me that although many people do not know, VISA CAN CANCEL ONLINE OPERATION AFTER 12 MONTHS, and although also my company is very large, AND HE NOTICE ME  than in this case they can also cancel the operation to me.

[Dreamtheme]

I think I have not well explained, the director of my bank (one of the most important in Spain) told me that although many people do not know, VISA CAN CANCEL ONLINE OPERATION AFTER 12 MONTHS, and although also my company is very large, AND HE NOTICE ME  than in this case they can also cancel the operation to me.

 

Are you understanding the difference between charge back and refund explained above?

[bellini13]

this is forum and i can reply here the same as you can. Fact that I'm a moderator does not mean that i can't have own opinion. I am not an employee of prestashop, it's only my own opinion.

yes Vekia you are correct.  But as a moderator, you are also looked at by the community as a voice for Prestashop.  So while you are very respected and your opinion does matter, in this instance we are looking for a formal response from Prestashop, someone that can actually provide responses to the issues at hand.

[vekia]

i agree with you We need an official voice from PrestaShop team, not from us - community members

[Burhan BVK]

Well, just now I received a refund notification for an order made on 28 January, that is almost 11 months ago. And the reason given was that:

Indeed, your module/theme is not compatible with PrestaBox and the customer is using this service.

So it took them 11 months to figure this out? And this is stated on the module page, in red. I expect a customer to check these things before purchase. Otherwise anyone can request a refund, for something the module was never advertised to do. If Prestabox can not run this module, maybe they should refund the money that is paid for Prestabox.

[Dreamtheme]

Well, just now I received a refund notification for an order made on 28 January, that is almost 11 months ago. And the reason given was that:

Indeed, your module/theme is not compatible with PrestaBox and the customer is using this service.

So it took them 11 months to figure this out? And this is stated on the module page, in red. I expect a customer to check these things before purchase. Otherwise anyone can request a refund, for something the module was never advertised to do. If Prestabox can not run this module, maybe they should refund the money that is paid for Prestabox.

 

Too bad

I have asked directly some PrestaShop staff, they answered me why is refunded "This client has been banned and he couldn't buy anything on our platform.", and this seems to be chargeback not refund, however no one answered me with what is the refund policy. It seems to me that there is no refund policy.

 

 

[Burhan BVK]

Too bad

I have asked directly some PrestaShop staff, they answered me why is refunded "This client has been banned and he couldn't buy anything on our platform.", and this seems to be chargeback not refund, however no one answered me with what is the refund policy. It seems to me that there is no refund policy.

 

 

 

I doubt if any of that was true. I had a client that got a refund, we had some exchanges so I knew their URL. They continued using the module, and even had access to updates, things I could confirm via the module config file. At best that means they were able to purchase another license, so they were not banned.

 

And being a partner does not change their attitude the least bit. As far as I can see addons simply do not care about these issues. They will probably just come here and lock this thread instead of having any actual dialog.

[benjamin utterback]

Hi Burhan, send me a PM with the order details. I'll talk to Addons and find out what happened and also get a better explanation about the refund policy and procedures. 

[Dreamtheme]

depends on payment method...paypal has a limit of time...not sure what...

 

as for say 'my' American Express...I can dispute a charge pretty much anytime I please....and I would never lose..ever...

 

I don't see how one can answer this question unless they know the exact payment method.

 

 

as for moderator responding, we get to do pretty much anything we want...it's our only perk...

 

happy selling

 

I'm sorry but you seems not very familliar with chargebacks and refunds. This is two different things. I made some explenations and the difference between the two, please read it.

 

http://www.prestashop.com/forums/topic/283964-how-long-in-time-users-can-request-refund-prestashop-please-answer/?do=findComment&comment=1431802

Edited December 15, 2013 by Dreamtheme (see edit history)

[Dreamtheme]

pretty familiar with charge backs and refunds...most yanks are...my point is that chargebacks can be issued by processing company at various times.  that is all.  so there is not 'set' timeframe

 

it is part of doing business...

 

Well the topic is about refunds not chargebacks, and refunds depend entierly on PrestaShop refund policy, if you are familiar why on a topic about refunds you tell us about chargebacks.

 

Edit:

Yes there is "set" timeframe even for chargebacks, you can find them on your bank/credit card company, normaly from 6 to 36 months. However as i said we are talking about refund policy and not chargeback here, so please don't misslead readers.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Dreamtheme (see edit history)

[Dreamtheme]

Please don't mislead readers?  You are now skating on thin ice with me.  Be cautious how you proceed with posts that don't fit your answer.

 

Yes i think that you mislead readers because your answer is about chargebacks as i explained to you, and the topic is about refunds. And i don't understand why you threaten me for correcting you?

[Burhan BVK]

So still no update from addons about this issue? In the meantime, I see a couple new refunds, one for an order from 9 months ago, and without any explanation given. I can see them in my seller account but have not received any information. It does not matter much as they hardly ever tell the truth about it.

 

I think it is time we as contributors started acting together. It is obvious that addons simply do not care about individual contributors.

[benjamin utterback]

Hey Burhan, 

 

   We haven't forgotten and this is an important topic to discuss and clarify. Thank you for your patience during this holiday season. I'm making sure this question is responded to directly.

 

 

-Benjamin

[benjamin utterback]

Hello Contributors,

 

   To start, we wish you all a Happy New Year and success in 2014 and thank you for your contributions to the PrestaShop solution. We do our best to balance the needs and wants of our contributors and our customers. That said, we know it's impossible to make everybody happy at all times. Refunds are not something that we want but there are a few reasons why a refund after the initial 45 day holding period days can happen. Obviously, these are out of the ordinary refunds and is definitely something we can clarify and address now. 

 

  In the TOS of the contributors guide it does state that you have to wait 45 days to take the money out. We realize that the contributors TOS is a bit unclear in terms of the refunds but here are the facts. Refunds are given at an extremely small percent and a nearly all of them are PayPal and ATMOS disputes.In cases like these, where the refunds are given months after is actually because of these disputes. 

 

   Yes, we know that PayPal has a 90 day refund policy on disputes but in actuality, they also charge us back months and months after the sale. For each of these disputes, we do our best to fight them and take the necessary steps to ensure that this does not happen again. However, this is not something we can control when PayPal charges us back 11 months after the sale and actually charges us to process the dispute plus the refunded amount. These can be accounting issues, charge-back from their bank, PayPal disputes etc. All of which can and do happen months after.

 

  We do refund the money, eat the additional fee and take the money out of the contributor account. We understand that the TOS of the Contributors guide does not state because (really) these refunds are rare and the percentage very low.

 

  We know that this answer is not ideal and that there are will still be disputes and discussions over the apparent inefficacy of the Addons store. So we ask you in an open discussion, what do you think some of the issues are regarding the refunds and what do you think we should do to help solve it for you, for your customers and the PrestaShop Addons store?

 

Cheers,

[Dreamtheme]

Thank you Benjamin for you answer and happy new year to all of PrestaShop too  

I agree with you that there is little percent of "chargebacks" which PayPal side with customers, we too work with them and that's why there is websites like http://www.paypalsucks.com/

However there is "refunds" which addons market gives for other reasons like "The customer decide not to use the theme", and other similar.
As I clarify it before, we know that we can do very little for "chargebacks" but we can do a lot about "refunds", that's why I think that PrestaShop addons market must have official refund policy, it will be better for both customers and contributors if we know what are the conditions where refund may occur.

Also when refund occur, PrestaShop must inform us well for the reasons, if it is "chargeback" or "refund", because we the contributors try to satisfy all, ( we know it’s impossible ) so we have to know what are the reasons behind every refund, and not just general replay.

I really appreciate your efforts guys, and we want to help you so we can all benefit. I can suggest you also to see other big software markets like Google Play and Apple appstore and others who sells software, how they handle similar problems.

 

Cheers,

 

[benjamin utterback]

Hi Dreamtheme, and thank you for the feedback.

 

I totally agree with you. In cases like these, the standard messages should not be sent. That "reason" that you stated is definitely something that we need to work on. In these rare cases, there needs to be a more detailed explanation about why it is happening and why the money is being taken out. 

 

I would think that would help many of the misunderstandings when we give a refund so many months after. The reason is hardly, "the customer decided to not use it" ... Albeit, I'm sure you can remember the time when we use to give no messages to contributors after refund whatsoever. 

 

We are continuously working on making the Addons Store better for both the contributors and the customers. It is an ongoing process and it is through discussions like this one which gives us added perspective.

 

So, I'll note that down. More detailed "refund reasons" when the refund is given after the initial time period. 

 

I don't have experience as a contributor to any of the Google, apple or other software marketplaces so I can't speak for them. However, I'm sure they have the ability to "eat" the refund, just as we have the ability to "eat" the additional PayPal charge that comes with long standing disputes, and we do. 

[Dreamtheme]

Thank you, Cheers