Dreamtheme Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) Here i will express my opinion about 1.5.0.13 version. Some of the topics are discussed but i will summarize it. - Lack of backward compatibility. The current 1.5 version is not compatible with current 1.4.x and older versions. This means that all the modules, themes and etc have to be rewritten. While is not big issue for us developers, it will be for the customers who already using this old modules and themes, and upgrading will be big pain for them. Not to mention, that Presta Team never speak about what will happen with all old stores who use default PrestaShop theme and based modules. I think this will be step back. - The new Back Office theme. It is really good with custom width, thanks to MrZoom for finding - Back Office Speed The speed of the Back Office is greatly reduced, i know it is still RC, however it is very very heavy and this will increase server resources and also its not very productive to work with. One of the advantages of PrestaShop in my opinion compared to other CMS carts is that it was relatively light. For example on a local server on my PC (which is very good) PrestaShop modules sections tooks Load time: 2.185s which is really very very slow, this will be 4-5+ secs on real server. To compare the same page opened in 1.4.8.2 on the local machine took only 1.080s as you can see this is 100% and more slower. Administrator's permissions took 24 secs to load! - Live Edit At the moment of its release to this day, Live Edit don't work correctly, there are thousend of bug reports about it and in the new RC its still broken, if you delete some boxes from the right column for example and click save, they are still there but they are missing in the "right columns" in modules - positions. - Back Office - Modules. All the modules categories are shown and this is really frustrating. If you want to see only "left columns" modules positions you can't, and all categories are displayed and it don't offer a filter to hide them or tab variant, in 1.4.x was somehow more clear and easy. - Back Office - Bakcup Still no restore function, and users must use phpMyAdmin to restore their DB. It will be really good if you make 1 click back-up and restore just like in auto-upgrade module and to include files too. - Back Office - Themes When you add new themes, and enter directory and choose "copy missing files from default" it returns strange things, sometimes replace preview.jpg, sometimes replace already existing other files, how this is supposed to work exactly? - 1.4.x to 1.5.x Auto upgrade? With so many changes and renamed hooks and modules structure changes, will this even be possible? What will happen with installations using the "old" default theme for example? This is so far my opinion i will continue to test and will add something if i find. So far Presta Team doing amazing job, and i wish to continue that way Edited June 11, 2012 by Dreamtheme (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Kranzler Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Hi Dreamtheme, Thank you for your input. I will pass this along to our team. -Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrzoom Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Hi Dreamtheme, I just wanted to if you have missed the backoffice width setting that can be found when you configure an employee. That may make you like the new theme a little bit more 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamtheme Posted June 11, 2012 Author Share Posted June 11, 2012 Hi Dreamtheme, I just wanted to if you have missed the backoffice width setting that can be found when you configure an employee. That may make you like the new theme a little bit more Thanks, i have edited my post about it, its really great finding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabien Serny Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Hi Dreamtheme, - Lack of backward compatibility. The current 1.5 version is not compatible with current 1.4.x and older versions. This means that all the modules, themes and etc have to be rewritten. While is not big issue for us developers, it will be for the customers who already using this old modules and themes, and upgrading will be big pain for them. Not to mention, that Presta Team never speak about what will happen with all old stores who use default PrestaShop theme and based modules. I think this will be step back. Can you give some examples ? Maybe we can fix some problems. We tried to keep a certain retrocompatibility. A lot of 1.4 module will be able to work on 1.5. Most of problems will come with shipping module (getOrderShippingCost function changed, system of delivery point is a bit different, ...) - Back Office Speed The speed of the Back Office is greatly reduced, i know it is still RC, however it is very very heavy and this will increase server resources and also its not very productive to work with. One of the advantages of PrestaShop in my opinion compared to other CMS carts is that it was relatively light. For example on a local server on my PC (which is very good) PrestaShop modules sections tooks Load time: 2.185s which is really very very slow, this will be 4-5+ secs on real server. To compare the same page opened in 1.4.8.2 on the local machine took only 1.080s as you can see this is 100% and more slower. Administrator's permissions took 24 secs to load! You're right back office is much more heavy now. But I do not agree with you on all points. If you have a real server, module page won't be longer. In fact, if you are on wamp (I'm not , it will take longer on your wamp than on a real server. Administrator permission took 24 secs to load ? o_O I believed modules page was one of the heaviest page of the back office, I'll take a look. - Live Edit At the moment of its release to this day, Live Edit don't work correctly, there are thousend of bug reports about it and in the new RC its still broken, if you delete some boxes from the right column for example and click save, they are still there but they are missing in the "right columns" in modules - positions. We're on it - Back Office - Modules. All the modules categories are shown and this is really frustrating. If you want to see only "left columns" modules positions you can't, and all categories are displayed and it don't offer a filter to hide them or tab variant, in 1.4.x was somehow more clear and easy. I'm not sure I understood you. You want to make this filter on the AdminModules page or the AdminModulesPositions page ? - Back Office - Bakcup Still no restore function, and users must use phpMyAdmin to restore their DB. It will be really good if you make 1 click back-up and restore just like in auto-upgrade module and to include files too. Unfortunately, we didn't work on that, but maybe for a further version as a module - Back Office - Themes When you add new themes, and enter directory and choose "copy missing files from default" it returns strange things, sometimes replace preview.jpg, sometimes replace already existing other files, how this is supposed to work exactly? Did you make a report on the forge ? Could you write the link of the bug report here ? - 1.4.x to 1.5.x Auto upgrade? With so many changes and renamed hooks and modules structure changes, will this even be possible? What will happen with installations using the "old" default theme for example? I assure you there will not be any trouble with hook renamed as we create a table for the match between old hook names and new hook names. For the PrestaShop using the old default theme, the theme will be updated with the shop. I do not see any problem there. Can you be more specific ? This is so far my opinion i will continue to test and will add something if i find. So far Presta Team doing amazing job, and i wish to continue that way I'm glad to hear that your happy about our work We're happy that community help us improving the software Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamtheme Posted June 12, 2012 Author Share Posted June 12, 2012 Can you give some examples ? Maybe we can fix some problems. We tried to keep a certain retrocompatibility. A lot of 1.4 module will be able to work on 1.5. Most of problems will come with shipping module (getOrderShippingCost function changed, system of delivery point is a bit different, ...) I had in mind most of the free modules which customers use, and with new hook names and structure of modules, many of them won't work. Take for example Sliders, they are many and mostly free, it is good that you have included slider, but your slider is a bit basic, no themes for it, no navigation option, for example left-right arrows, or such, so users go and pick some slider module. And with the new hooks there is a big chance this module won't work correctly or will not install at all. You're right back office is much more heavy now. But I do not agree with you on all points. If you have a real server, module page won't be longer. In fact, if you are on wamp (I'm not , it will take longer on your wamp than on a real server. Administrator permission took 24 secs to load ? o_O I believed modules page was one of the heaviest page of the back office, I'll take a look. I have compared 1.4.x on local Wamp and our real server, real server is always slower compared to local wamp and this is normal. If there is some issue with Wamp and PrestaShop, this is something new for me I have just upload the 1.5.0.13 on our real server, and it is also slower compared to Wamp on local. Why version 1.5.x is so much heavier anyway? I'm not sure I understood you. You want to make this filter on the AdminModules page or the AdminModulesPositions page ? When you open the modules - > positions, all the Categories of this positions are shown. For example. "Add fields to the form "attribute group" - 0 module ", "Add fields to the form "attribute value" - 0 module", "Administration panel footer - 0 module" and so on, what i meant is this "categories" should be able to be hidden, like in tabs or something and to open only the categories you need, for example, i look for "right column" and it is way down the list, and i have to scroll all this categories to find that one. So admin modules Positions should be more organized. Did you make a report on the forge ? Could you write the link of the bug report here ? About that, no i did not submit it on the forge, because I'm not sure how exactly this is supposed to work, that's why i asked and why is replacing existing files, is there is something missing in them or it is a bug. I assure you there will not be any trouble with hook renamed as we create a table for the match between old hook names and new hook names. For the PrestaShop using the old default theme, the theme will be updated with the shop. I do not see any problem there. Can you be more specific ? I didn't knew you have hook rename to fit the new ones, that's why i asked about auto-upgrade. Well, with the "new" default theme is replacing the old default theme, there is a big concern in my opinion. Shops that are not using custom themes, and relay on the default theme, maybe a little changed colors or something in the css, will have major problem with the new theme, if they want to upgrade, they will be forced to change their layout to the new one, and this is not good for the working shops, their clients are familiar with their layout and forcing a new one, may impact their sells, and in this situation store owner is not in control. Modules, based on the old default theme layout will be also trashed because of the new theme layout. Even if they are updated, regular customer will have a problems to accomplish what they have before. Forcing clients to change their theme layout on working shops is something strange. So in my opinion, the old default theme should continue to be in PrestaShop, and maybe you should include both, old one and the new one, and when users upgrade or install have an option to choose to keep their current old default theme or use the new one. Otherwise you force shop owners using old default theme to choose upgrade or not. The choice of keeping old layout or new should be to the user Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabien Serny Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I had in mind most of the free modules which customers use, and with new hook names and structure of modules, many of them won't work. Take for example Sliders, they are many and mostly free, it is good that you have included slider, but your slider is a bit basic, no themes for it, no navigation option, for example left-right arrows, or such, so users go and pick some slider module. And with the new hooks there is a big chance this module won't work correctly or will not install at all. Old hook names and structure should still work on 1.5, I make sure of that. Please test the modules you think won't work, and if it doesn't work, give me the name of the module to see what is the problem. Again, I do not say that 100% of modules will be compliant, but most of them will I have compared 1.4.x on local Wamp and our real server, real server is always slower compared to local wamp and this is normal. If there is some issue with Wamp and PrestaShop, this is something new for me I have just upload the 1.5.0.13 on our real server, and it is also slower compared to Wamp on local. Why version 1.5.x is so much heavier anyway? That's very strange, on my local wamp, it's slower. What kind of server do you have ? Anyway, 1.5 is heavier because there are more functionalities such as multishop. We make some optimisations on Modules Tab so you should download the last SVN version and give a try. When you open the modules - > positions, all the Categories of this positions are shown. For example. "Add fields to the form "attribute group" - 0 module ", "Add fields to the form "attribute value" - 0 module", "Administration panel footer - 0 module" and so on, what i meant is this "categories" should be able to be hidden, like in tabs or something and to open only the categories you need, for example, i look for "right column" and it is way down the list, and i have to scroll all this categories to find that one. So admin modules Positions should be more organized. That's a good idea but I don't think we'll be able to add this before the final version :-/ About that, no i did not submit it on the forge, because I'm not sure how exactly this is supposed to work, that's why i asked and why is replacing existing files, is there is something missing in them or it is a bug. I can't make an accurate answer. I will find the developer in charge to answer your question. Well, with the "new" default theme is replacing the old default theme, there is a big concern in my opinion. Shops that are not using custom themes, and relay on the default theme, maybe a little changed colors or something in the css, will have major problem with the new theme, if they want to upgrade, they will be forced to change their layout to the new one, and this is not good for the working shops, their clients are familiar with their layout and forcing a new one, may impact their sells, and in this situation store owner is not in control. Modules, based on the old default theme layout will be also trashed because of the new theme layout. Even if they are updated, regular customer will have a problems to accomplish what they have before. Forcing clients to change their theme layout on working shops is something strange. So in my opinion, the old default theme should continue to be in PrestaShop, and maybe you should include both, old one and the new one, and when users upgrade or install have an option to choose to keep their current old default theme or use the new one. Otherwise you force shop owners using old default theme to choose upgrade or not. The choice of keeping old layout or new should be to the user If the merchant is using the default theme, this one will be updated with the shop so there will be no crash. But I agree with you the appearance of the theme will change. We're not forcing any shop owner to make an update of their shop and we can't either slow improvment because some merchants want to use their old theme. It's like if we change a functionnality by changing some comportments. You can't tell us that the merchant want to update his shop and keep the old way the functionnality work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamtheme Posted June 13, 2012 Author Share Posted June 13, 2012 Old hook names and structure should still work on 1.5, I make sure of that. Please test the modules you think won't work, and if it doesn't work, give me the name of the module to see what is the problem. Again, I do not say that 100% of modules will be compliant, but most of them will I had try some with problems, but i will do more testing and i will post That's very strange, on my local wamp, it's slower. What kind of server do you have ? Anyway, 1.5 is heavier because there are more functionalities such as multishop. We make some optimisations on Modules Tab so you should download the last SVN version and give a try. If you don't have hardware, or software problems on your PC, or problem with Wamp, there is no way how real server will be faster then local machine, simply because on local you request directly from hdd, while on real server your request is traveled via the internet, and no matter how fast is your internet, you will always get at least 200-500ms slower response time via the internet. Almost every switch adds 10ms delay If multi-shop adds so much weight on PrestaShop, isn't it more wise to do it like a module, and only users which will use multi-shop install this, or technically its not wise or it doesn't matter if its a module or not? That's a good idea but I don't think we'll be able to add this before the final version :-/ Whenever is possible is good If the merchant is using the default theme, this one will be updated with the shop so there will be no crash. But I agree with you the appearance of the theme will change. We're not forcing any shop owner to make an update of their shop and we can't either slow improvment because some merchants want to use their old theme. It's like if we change a functionnality by changing some comportments. You can't tell us that the merchant want to update his shop and keep the old way the functionnality work I disagree with you on this, if its improvement or not is subjective, simply because it is aesthetic change, and aesthetics is always subjective. As a theme developer i know this because the themes which i like and think are the best and put most effort in them is not the themes which sells the best So aesthetic improvements are subjective thing. Majority of users update because of bug fixes, security fixes and stability, not so much for aesthetic. And you also offer this theme for free on add-ons webpage. I really don't see any technical reason why not to include both themes, and give the choice for this aesthetic change to the users and make transitions from version to version smoother. It will be even better if you include like 4-5 themes to choose from. As a theme developer this change is good for our business, because you will brake many existing shops based on the old default theme, and they will turn to addons store As a user, i think this is a minus, and smooth transition from version to version and stability in the future becomes questionable for me as a user with this change, simply because for this mandatory aesthetics change as a user i will have to either stop update and risk of security and bugs, or loose investments made based on this old default theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabien Serny Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I had try some with problems, but i will do more testing and i will post Okay I'll wait for your test. This is very important to me so if there is some important problem, I'll fix them (except on specific case such as carrier module). If you don't have hardware, or software problems on your PC, or problem with Wamp, there is no way how real server will be faster then local machine, simply because on local you request directly from hdd, while on real server your request is traveled via the internet, and no matter how fast is your internet, you will always get at least 200-500ms slower response time via the internet. Almost every switch adds 10ms delay I had the (maybe false) idea that wamp was slow when he has to access file on hdd. On my computer windows with wamp (I works mostly on mac with a lamp), it was slower. Anyway, I never saw the modules tab takes more than 2 secs on server and I don't even speak of administration right which take 24 secs on your PrestaShop. You must have something who slow you down. If multi-shop adds so much weight on PrestaShop, isn't it more wise to do it like a module, and only users which will use multi-shop install this, or technically its not wise or it doesn't matter if its a module or not? Multishop will have been to complex to include in the shape of a module. And as I said "such as multishop", I do not say multishop was the reason PrestaShop was heavier I disagree with you on this, if its improvement or not is subjective, simply because it is aesthetic change, and aesthetics is always subjective. As a theme developer i know this because the themes which i like and think are the best and put most effort in them is not the themes which sells the best So aesthetic improvements are subjective thing. Majority of users update because of bug fixes, security fixes and stability, not so much for aesthetic. And you also offer this theme for free on add-ons webpage. I really don't see any technical reason why not to include both themes, and give the choice for this aesthetic change to the users and make transitions from version to version smoother. It will be even better if you include like 4-5 themes to choose from. As a theme developer this change is good for our business, because you will brake many existing shops based on the old default theme, and they will turn to addons store As a user, i think this is a minus, and smooth transition from version to version and stability in the future becomes questionable for me as a user with this change, simply because for this mandatory aesthetics change as a user i will have to either stop update and risk of security and bugs, or loose investments made based on this old default theme. I do not agree with you on several points : "Majority of users update because of bug fixes, security fixes and stability, not so much for aesthetic." You do not upgrade from 1.4 to 1.5 for this, you upgrade to 1.5 for new functionnality. So there is no real need to a merchant to update to 1.5. If he does, he will have his theme updated. That's why we put the theme on Addons for 1.4 to let him choose "It will be even better if you include like 4-5 themes to choose from" It will mean that we have to maintain the compatibility for 4 or 5 theme as a time, the development time will be huge and we will have less time to improve the software. Community is here to help us on this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamtheme Posted June 13, 2012 Author Share Posted June 13, 2012 (edited) Fabien, About the default theme, you have more insight and user statistic information then me, so probably you are more correct, i just express my view and concerns, i hope your decision to be the correct one About the speed. I have a wamp server 2.2 Apache 2.2.22 – Mysql 5.5.24 – PHP 5.3.13 XDebug 2.1.2 XDC 1.5 PhpMyadmin 3.4.10.1 SQLBuddy 1.3.3 webGrind 1.0 I have several PrestaShop installations 1.4.4, 1.4.7, 1.4.8.2, 1.5.0.13 currently. All default installations without modifications or customizations. I'm using FireFox 13, the two test versions are opened side by side in two tabs, PC is idle, only browser, wamp, notepad and skype runing. Here is my timings after 3 refreshes of each page. The first load is very slow, so i measure it now by 3 refreshes with browser's cache. Admin home page 1.4.8.2: Load time: 0.073s 1.5.0.13: Load time: 0.377s 135.1111% difference Admin Modules page 1.4.8.2: Load time: 0.911s 1.5.0.13: Load time: 1.406s 42.7277% difference Admin Modules positions page 1.4.8.2: Load time: 0.331s 1.5.0.13: Load time: 1.162s 111.3195% difference Admin Employs page 1.4.8.2: Load time: 0.052s 1.5.0.13: Load time: 0.471s 160.2294% difference Admin Employs - Permissions - page 1.4.8.2: Load time: 0.049s 1.5.0.13: Load time: 23.468s !!! - 6 times refresh 199.1666% difference Admin Orders page - with 1 order each 1.4.8.2: Load time: 0.064s 1.5.0.13: Load time: 0.415s 146.5553% difference Admin Customers page - with 1 customer each 1.4.8.2: Load time: 0.064s 1.5.0.13: Load time: 0.423s 147.4333% difference Admin Stats page 1.4.8.2: Load time: 0.244s 1.5.0.13: Load time: 0.508s 70.2128% difference Admin Manufacturer's page 1.4.8.2: Load time: 0.095s 1.5.0.13: Load time: 0.630s 147.5862% difference Comparing my local wamp 1.4.8.2 to my 1.4.8.2 real server on my hosting provider: Admin home page 1.4.8.2 local: Load time: 0.073s 1.4.8.2 Hosting server: Load time: 0.289s Admin Employs - Permissions - page 1.4.8.2 local: Load time: 0.049s 1.4.8.2 Hosting server: Load time: 0.214s As you can see there is around 150ms delay because of my internet which is normal. My conclusion is that current RC version of 1.5.0.13 is from 45% to 200% slower then 1.4.8.2 with middle 130% slower. Edit: added percentage difference numbers Edited June 13, 2012 by Dreamtheme (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabien Serny Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Hi DreamTheme, No need to make a benchmark, I just said that on my wamp it was slower but I believed you when you say that on your (or other) wamp, it is faster Hi ponddude, No one denied the back office is slower. In fact if you read my previous message, I gave an explanation why it's slower. Moreover, we are working to improve performance. Since DreamTheme post the first message of this topic, we already improve speed on several tabs such AdminModules tab. Best regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamtheme Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 Well i do it more for myself to see exactly its still RC so i'm sure it will be improved on the final version Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamtheme Posted June 15, 2012 Author Share Posted June 15, 2012 I found new bug, the top horizontal menu module, if you Add "Add Menu Top Link" link, for example with Label Home, Link Index.php, the link do not appear. And if you remove the default buttons, and leave only custom links, which don't appear, the layout brakes (get thinner). I will submit it on forge too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamtheme Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 Anything on the horizontal menu bug? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Favre Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Hi Dreamtheme, Can you post the link to the bug on the forge so I can check who is taking care of it? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamtheme Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 Sure, http://forge.prestashop.com/browse/PNM-286 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Favre Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I have checked with Fabien, he still has other tasks to do before starting on this one, so have a bit of patience my friend . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamtheme Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 No problem mate, i know you are very busy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamtheme Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 Any news about this bug? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Favre Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Hi DreamTheme, We should be able to give you more information about it in the incoming days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Favre Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 François has just fixed the issue. You can take a look in the bug tracker . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamtheme Posted July 4, 2012 Author Share Posted July 4, 2012 Thanks Carl good job, however i can't see the changes on http://scm.prestashop.com/ it returns Forbidden You don't have permission to access / on this server. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Favre Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Oups! You can also take a look on the svn and François is going to answer you too on the bug tracker . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamtheme Posted July 4, 2012 Author Share Posted July 4, 2012 kk thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts