Pros and Cons of 1.5 with multistore

[OC2PS]

I think the "big improvement" planned for 1.5 is multistore. My suggestion - don't do it. While it seems like a flashy big thing that's cool to do...there are several pitfalls...

1. It complicates things...

- complicated programming

-- possibility for bugs to sneak in

- complicated interface

2. It takes development time away from other, potentially high business impact enhancements

3. A very very tiny percentage of the software's users need or use this feature

 

I've seen Opencart go down in flames over this...OC was a pretty good software, then the developer decided to provide multistore in order to differentiate from other scripts...result is development on pretty much everything else halted for a long time, afterwards the developer couldn't focus on getting everything back on track and it took a year to finally get to a bug-ridden 1.5, and to top it all, hardly anyone uses the bloody thing...

 

My suggestion - don't screw with a good thing (Prestashop) by trying to take it multistore...

[EQ10000]

Well, I would like to suggest to build another fork/product/project for multistore if the core decided to build it. Lets say to name it "PestaShopMS". So, keeping PrestaShop in single store and having fast development on track would be perfect for 99% market/users.

[TeslaZap]

I quote OC2PS.

 

The breakthrough feature would be an effective/reliable/simple upgrading system from a version to the next.

 

Yes, if you stick to the manual the upgrade is straightforward. BUT reading the forum, every 100 people: 90 have troubles upgrading/installing; 9 ask about misc things and maybe 1 would love the multi store.

 

 

Tz

[ukbaz]

Totally agree - what Prestashop need is strong, reliable and easily upgradable core. Before going down the barely needed by anyone 'multistore' bells and whistles route.

 

Prestashop is great, easy to use and one of the best e-commerce solutions I've tried, but rather than concentrating on the core and basice they seem to constantly be extending with often buggy additions and relying on other third party developers to give users what they actually need. For instance - can anyone quote an instance of another cart that does not have an offline card processing module built in, and has instead numerous payment options that some people have never heard of?

 

Most users I suspect woul dbe much happier with less features and more ease of updates and reliability.

[mozexty]

I would totally agree with the idea. Maybe creating another product for MultiStore would avoid unneeded complexity and left everyone happy.

[guest*]

Me too. I agree completly to that. I don't need Mulstistore, so if presta want's to have this, so please don't include it as a standard, but as an extra module (paid or not) only for them who need it.

Multistore will complicate the BO maintain, which in presta is quite easy till now.

[pmfjoe]

I completely agree though I think they are too far along in the design process to stop now. But for 1.6 I think a better update process should be the #1 feature.

[OC2PS]

I look to Wordpress when I need to see OpenSource done right. WP is not perfect, but still sets the standard when it comes to pluggable functionality, stability and ease of use.

 

They have 2 separate versions - Wordpress and WP MU...perhaps PS should take a cue from that? Also, note that one-click core updates and one-click module & theme installation and updates were available on WP long before WP started working on MU.

 

From what I've heard, less than 1000 installs existed for WP MU, and all of them were large corporate users. Ultimately, WP decided to cease development of WP MU, and rolled in existing features into WP core under a separate tab.

 

I know that Opencart, which created the multistore capability more than a year ago, has less than 10% of 1% of its installations having more than 1 store. AND this includes test installations and people who created additional stores to check the functionality out, but never commercially used the additional stores...

 

Once again, I'd request developers to:

- Focus on critical features that are important for 90% customers such as one-click install and updates and configurable themes

- Try to avoid Magento-like bloat

- Either avoid multistore altogether, or float it as a separate module/fork, instead of building it as a part of the core

[ukbaz]

Once again, I'd request developers to:

- Focus on critical features that are important for 90% customers such as one-click install and updates and configurable themes

- Try to avoid Magento-like bloat

- Either avoid multistore altogether, or float it as a separate module/fork, instead of building it as a part of the core

 

Glad to see there is some agreement regarding this (at least here). You only need to look at any posts requesting the Multi-store feature to see how few users actually are asking for it - out of the 80,000 odd current users. Maybe a poll should have been taken before now ;-)

 

Baz

[OC2PS]

I guess the PS team fell prey to the vocal minority...very few people asked for multistore, but asked for it very loudly. The people who didn't need it, didn't go there and say, we don't want it.

 

It's easy to say, well, let them develop it, if you don't want it, just don't use it. But the fact is that an unwanted feature is not neautral - it does harm, and especially so if it is as massive as multistore. Here's the problem:

- It takes developer time away from critical features that 90% users need/want

- It takes developer and product managers' time away from cooking up innovations that could benefit 90% of users

- It makes software complicated and bug-prone

- It makes software interface complex and less user-friendly.

[OC2PS]

A bit off-topic, but I requested one-click updates here: http://www.prestasho...click-upgrades/

 

If you'd like one-click updates implemented, please vote for it at

http://forge.prestas.../browse/PSFV-19

[shokinro]

Actually I also have the same feeling.

It is not worth to develop core PrestaShop with multi-store. It will make things compliecated.

To gte a few new users but maybe lost more potential new users.

[Lindsayanng]

I agree.. I have only built one store on prestashop and while I am not overly thrilled with the open source aspect of this cart when it comes to the community, the cart itself seemed to be managed better than oscommerce which is what I was using. I was ready to take the hit in unavailable existing mods for this cart because it's young in exchange for what seemed to be better management of the system and better decisions..

 

Adding multi-store as a built in feature is really very useless to most and as said in previous posts - it's just going to bloat up a cart that needs SOOOO much more to be truly great. The lack of basic functions is a huge downfall of a cart and people would happily give it i pass due to age, but adding something like Multi-store shows bad decisions on resource management. It's more of a "look what we did" thing versus really working towards making something usable for the average estore owner.

[Raphaël Malié]

Well since the multistore functionality is already developped at 85%, it's too late anyway to rollback Personally I think this is a great function, and even if multistore is not asked by all members, there are enough users of Prestashop who need this functionality to justify this developpement.

[OC2PS]

With all due respect, Raphael, how many are enough to justify the development?

 

On the sticky thread, I see 56 replies since the thread was started on 04-February 08.

 

In all 23 users (Fabrice, pasko, Danman, truecredit, Fabri, jimmyc, rmarques, hellothere, Stefand, Floobynooby, bobby valentino, Solveigh, antonio_eggberg, indonesia store, 10mall, Simon-AV, Mister Denial, yv_sg, mariabastet, coyners25, GottaBark, josephandersson, JoshuaRiley) seem to have shown interest in multishop. Moreover, several of these users are "Newbies" with 1 or 2 (<5) posts (suggesting "possibly" that these are fake accounts, no longer on these forums or at least are not active in the community).

 

PS claims 80,000 commercial installations. If we assume that this figure is inflated and includes test installs etc, and there are only 50,000 commercial deployments, then the request has been made by 0.046% of users i.e. less than 10% of a half of 1% of all Prestashop users over a period of over 3.5 years, even if we assume that all 23 are genuine users, which is not 100% clear.

 

Is that a significant enough proportion of PS users to justify such a massive overhaul of the core code, especially one that can seriously negatively affect the vast majority of users?

 

With all due respect, if you think it is a great function, my guess would be that you are a programmer/developer and not an actual commercial shop owner of non-technical products. I can understand why you would feel good about creating a seemingly cool thing...it's slightly similar to why programmers sometimes suddenly decide to rewrite a software from scratch. But it doesn't make it a good idea. In fact, it is a very very bad idea (says Joel Spolsky, founder of Stack Overflow and Fog Creek http://www.joelonsof...0000000069.html)

 

That being said, I understand that multistore functionality is already developped at 85% and it's too late anyway to rollback. What we suggest is that the multistore version be forked from the core. There should be 2 versions: one normal, one with multistore. This has several benefits, not the least of which are:

1) The core is not screwed up for the vast majority of users

2) The core interface is not made unnecessarily complicated for the vast majority of users, and

(this might be scary to the development team)

3) You will get an exact idea of how many people are REALLY interested in the multistore functionality

[Dreamtheme]

I think Presta dev's are better then opencart ones and will deliver a smoother multistore.

[OC2PS]

I think Presta dev's are better then opencart ones and will deliver a smoother multistore.

 

OpenCart: it is not widely used because it is not good enough.

 

I don't agree with you. When you have the ability propoerly coded, having a multishop feature is not that much work for the future and a great, great feature.

 

 

There's a word that the Bible uses for this kind of thinking - it's called "hubris"...."this kind of thing happens to others...we will fare differently because we are so much better/smarter/luckier than others"

 

Well, just to point out the obvious;

 

Wordpress; the MU version was not used enough because many didn't know about it. When it is in the core it is very popular since running several sites with one core and one update is just great! So it seems like you like Wordpress, and there is actually many good reasons why they ceased the MU and worked it into the WP core.

 

You seem to be bending the definition of "pointing out the obvious". In fact, you seem to be trying to rewrite history.

 

WP MU was promoted on every single page of the Wordpress site, including the download page, so saying that people didn't download it because they didn't know it existed sounds quite ignorant.

 

Many store owners I know, when one shop is runing they would like to open another one with different products. It is not unusual to have 2-5 stores with different products, and beeing able to use one BO for all administration is a great advantage,

Well, to borrow your expression, "to point the obvious", the real advantage of a multistore is when you are trying to sell the same products in different stores. Yes, there are SOME benefits even if you are selling different products (common shipping, payment info etc), but that setup requires not more than a couple of hours, and is usually a one-time setup...it would be an utter waste of development time if multistore was created to provide for stores that sell different products.

 

There is a forum for Swedish stor owners, and I do not know the percentage, but I would guess 30% of all owners actually have more than one store.

 

And if Prestashop catered exclusively to Swedish owners, it would make perfect sense to create multistore...maybe whoever created the Swedish forums (they aren't on these official forums) can create a fork. But considering that most PS users are already on these forums and Swedish users probably form a tiny proportion of PS users, I think my original argument still stands.

[Lindsayanng]

Bloggus - you are missing some BIG BIG BIG points made here.

 

Is multistore something that would be beneficial to prestashop in the future?? Sure. No one is discounting that there isn't some need somewhere for a feature like this. There is, however a HUGE issue with the timing of all of this. The team has literally decided to put most man hours into creating a feature that a small percentage of people could even use over putting those man hours into some functions that are requested and required by a much much larger percentage of users.

 

There are things like attribute sorting, better payment modules, better exporting features built in (the fact that I need to pay for a module to export a spreadsheet of orders and products is outrageous to me) are just some of the many features numerous users (both devs and end users) want to see.. So why multistore now?? Is it really a priority?

 

The final argument is that there is no doubt that the vast majority of users will not ever even consider using this new feature, which means that the average user of prestashop will just have bloat in their code that they do not need. Minimally it should be released as a plugin or a secondary option like wordpress MU did.

 

And in response to wordpress and wordpress MU. They did merge the two, but they didn't merge them until a few things happened. The most important aspect that played into the decision of merging the two was that they had this "MU" version out for years and had already worked out the bugs and heavily lightened the weight and made it perform much better over that time. Wordpress MU was literally just wordpress with a large "MU" module built in to it at the beginning. It took a few additional years before they felt right moving it in to the core... that was the right way to do it as to not alienate existing users until it was as lightweight as possible.

 

Prestashop working version 1 directly in to the core is a huge mistake.. HUGE

[devilsown]

I wish prestashop would concentrate on making the product less buggy.

 

I have/had issue with almost everything that not commonly a uk based thing. A.net don't work. Ups fedex and usps moduals all need more to them.

 

If you guys want more users make it work better for us USA based guys.

[OC2PS]

As a acompany striving for sucess, business wise, it has to attract more users and this multistore feature is all that.

 

That's what we have been trying to point out - that it is not a business decision...rather it seems a decision based on developer interest. If proper analysis were done before starting on the multistore feature they would have realized it is a terrible business idea.

[OC2PS]

I understand what you are saying...that there is a switching cost associated and therefore existing users are screwed. To get new users, they are working to put in shiny new feature called multistore.

 

That sounds okay in theory, but is fallacious on several counts.

 

1. Existing users do leave. In droves. After Opencart implemented multistore, there was a pretty substantial exodus. Heck, even I am one of those people...
2. When considering a feature for new user acquisition, you have to consider "how many" new users it will attract, compare it to how many new users will be attracted by other features, and what impact will there be on existing users. For a software that has grown from 50k to 80k in 6 months without multistore, getting 50 additional users by implementing multistore at the risk of losing 8000, doesn't seem to be a wise decision.
3. There is a need to consider new user acquisition more closely. Surely you will get some additional customers. But how does that compare to the number of additional customers you would have gotten without the feature? Are you sure there is a net gain? In the case of multishop, I'm not so sure. I don't know anyone who commercially deploys ecommerce software just based on how good the website looks or how many features are listed. Most people looking to deploy actually install 3-5 different software, and see how difficult/easy it is to set up and run. Usually, people go for simplicity - who wants to waste time dealing with software, when one could spend that time dealing with customers? And it's the backbone of their byusiness, so they want reliability and speed. Features like multistore make the software A.unstable, B. complex, and C. slow, which by my assessment will slow down user acquisition...in other words, if there are 6000 new deployments per month at the moment, after multistore, it is not out of the realm of possibility that 2000 of the prospectives won't deploy...if 20 new users join because of multistore every month, that means there is a net loss of 1980 new customers as overall acquisitions fall to 4020 per month.

Oh, hey, but there is a way to avoid that...and to make sure that the gains made by creating the multistore feature are actually net gains, and not net losses (as discussed above)...the simple path is a fork....a separate multistore version means PS continues to receive all the new user acquisitions as it would without the feature, and in addition, through the multistore version it gains additional customers.

[Carl Favre]

Hello everyone,

 

To begin with, let me reassure you that the multi store implementation is not going to make PrestaShop more bloated or that due to it, all the developers are working on it and neglecting all the other parts of PrestaShop.

 

It is not what the community wants and we really have at heart to satisfy our community.

 

Since the beginning of multi store implementation, it has always been developed with the idea that it was an option and as such to have no impact for single store user. We even added the choice to activate it or not.

And so, if you decide to activate it, the only change you are going to notice is a new tab in the back office.

 

We really really kept in mind ease of use throughout all the development.

 

Then, about the fact that due to multi store we were neglecting the basic development of Prestashop, I can affirm you that it is not the case.

 

To add this option, it only took 5-10% of the development timeline, the remaining 90% was used to increase usability, to modify the way prices and taxes are managed, to globally enhance the ergonomics of the product as these key points are our main concern.

 

1.5 was really developed in continuity with 1.4 to preserve compatibility.

 

We really take into consideration all the suggestions made, whether it concerns bug issues or new functionalities so we can deliver the most powerful tool for your shops.

 

So again, I can assure you that we will deliver a great product that will both please fan of single store and multi store.

[ukbaz]

Hello everyone,

 

To begin with, let me reassure you that the multi store implementation is not going to make PrestaShop more bloated or that due to it, all the developers are working on it and neglecting all the other parts of PrestaShop.

 

It is not what the community wants and we really have at heart to satisfy our community.

 

Since the beginning of multi store implementation, it has always been developed with the idea that it was an option and as such to have no impact for single store user. We even added the choice to activate it or not.

And so, if you decide to activate it, the only change you are going to notice is a new tab in the back office.

 

We really really kept in mind ease of use throughout all the development.

 

Then, about the fact that due to multi store we were neglecting the basic development of Prestashop, I can affirm you that it is not the case.

 

To add this option, it only took 5-10% of the development timeline, the remaining 90% was used to increase usability, to modify the way prices and taxes are managed, to globally enhance the ergonomics of the product as these key points are our main concern.

 

1.5 was really developed in continuity with 1.4 to preserve compatibility.

 

We really take into consideration all the suggestions made, whether it concerns bug issues or new functionalities so we can deliver the most powerful tool for your shops.

 

So again, I can assure you that we will deliver a great product that will both please fan of single store and multi store.

That's reassuring Carl - however some of the earlier comments are still valid regarding the existing 'isues' that should have been given attention first. For instance price reductions (a very long standing oddity) If you run a store showing prices Ex VAT the deduction amount has to have any VAT added before making that reduction. So you have to calculate that into the equation before actually making the reduced price - the percentage reduction works as it should. This introduces an extra step for merchants, as they have to make a calculation before any reduction. Hardly user friendly, and it has been that way for as long as I have been using Prestashop. Is that 'fixed' in 1.5?

 

I think what most users are saying on here is that it might have been more beneficial, and for Prestashop a better business model to try and reduce frustrating elements like this before running out a a multistore option that will attract relatively few. Bugs and glitches in coding will always put off more potential users than will be attracted by 'all singing and dancing' (though perhaps limited appeal) features.

 

Baz

[Jiri FAMiNE Cermak]

How many of you beefing about multistore feature have checked 1.5 SVN or alpha? I'm eagerly awaiting 1.5 final and checking SVN progress... There will be really no difference for a single store except one new tab in BO.

 

Most starting businesses are fine with single store, but IMHO once you start to grow, you'll need more flexibility. Most bigger companies i created website for, asked me if it's possible to create more shops sharing the same stock - wholesale shops with only selected product, multi mall capability, etc. With the need of stock sync across all eshops, most big(ger) companies went with Magento. But since Magento is real resource hog and total mess of thousands files, and much more expensive addons, more and more companies are searching for an alternative... this is IMHO great chance for prestashop.

 

There is simply no other actively developed Open Source choice (with real company behind) for bigger companies available. Some of you mentioned OpenCart, but it's developed by only one developer, and supported only by third party companies. BTW have you ever checked Magento? Magento is in my opinion the only real competitor to PS. Magento is able to handle multiple stores since it's first version, and that's probably why so many really big companies used their solution.

 

You simply need to understand that most of "home eshops" won't use this feature, but also won't bring PS any money. But a lot of bigger companies would use this feature - and some of these companies would also need support - and this is simply where the money are.

 

Some of you mentioned that there will be compatibility problem with current modules in new version - this problem was in all major releases 1.1>1.2>1.3>1.4...

 

As some of you mentioned creating fork of single store version - have you ever worked in any IT dev company? Creating fork would only take a lot of man hours and slow down the development, as devs would need to distribute all code changes to both versions - do you really want this? Also by creating fork there would rise a need of releasing two versions of all modules... (All this whining about multistore feature somehow reminds me a lot of "petitions" against new look of facebook. :-)

[ukbaz]

How many of you beefing about multistore feature have checked 1.5 SVN or alpha? I'm eagerly awaiting 1.5 final and checking SVN progress... There will be really no difference for a single store except one new tab in BO.

 

Most starting businesses are fine with single store, but IMHO once you start to grow, you'll need more flexibility. Most bigger companies i created website for, asked me if it's possible to create more shops sharing the same stock - wholesale shops with only selected product, multi mall capability, etc. With the need of stock sync across all eshops, most big(ger) companies went with Magento. But since Magento is real resource hog and total mess of thousands files, and much more expensive addons, more and more companies are searching for an alternative... this is IMHO great chance for prestashop....

 

What utter tosh regarding bigger companies and multi-store. This concept is invariably for small fry wanting to appear bigger than they are.

 

Do companies like Ikea, Marks and Spencer, Harrods, Walmart, Tesco use multistore? If they use a more than one site it's invariably a different domain - on a different server - with a separate site. The bigger the product base then the more unwieldy and indeed slower the whole thing becomes. Have you ever tried running a large product range on Prestashop? How many do products you envisage running, on how many multistores before the whole thing becomes unworkably slowwwwwwwwww? I'm running about 400 product lines on ours and with the few slow database queries that Prestashop still calls thatsometimes slows to a crawl with too many connections - and that uses a dedicated server.

 

IMHO Prestashop has great potential, but would be far better off optimising code, strengthening the core features that 'most' users need and indeed making the whole update process more user-friendly, and less of a 'hold your breath and hope' exercise. When I upgraded form 1.3.2 to 1.4.3 (Final) I had some 164 database errors - and looking at the forums I was not alone. This is simply too much of a pain in a live environment. Do you still think the value of multistore outweighs these basic issues?

 

Baz

-------

[Jiri FAMiNE Cermak]

What utter tosh regarding bigger companies and multi-store. This concept is invariably for small fry wanting to appear bigger than they are.

 

Do companies like Ikea, Marks and Spencer, Harrods, Walmart, Tesco use multistore? If they use a more than one site it's invariably a different domain - on a different server - with a separate site. The bigger the product base then the more unwieldy and indeed slower the whole thing becomes. Have you ever tried running a large product range on Prestashop? How many do products you envisage running, on how many multistores before the whole thing becomes unworkably slowwwwwwwwww? I'm running about 400 product lines on ours and with the few slow database queries that Prestashop still calls thatsometimes slows to a crawl with too many connections - and that uses a dedicated server.

 

IMHO Prestashop has great potential, but would be far better off optimising code, strengthening the core features that 'most' users need and indeed making the whole update process more user-friendly, and less of a 'hold your breath and hope' exercise. When I upgraded form 1.3.2 to 1.4.3 (Final) I had some 164 database errors - and looking at the forums I was not alone. This is simply too much of a pain in a live environment. Do you still think the value of multistore outweighs these basic issues?

 

Baz

-------

 

Hi Baz,

 

i'm just finishing store on 1.4.3/1.4.4, where i imported over 10000 products and over 500 categories, this customer has really cheap hosting ($2/month) and without memcached and any optimizations it now shows all pages within 3secs. Most shops i've done before are running on my VPS with some server side optimizations and with 5000 products page load times are cca. 1-2 secs. I've been also developing shop in magento, and it's impossible to get these load times without fullpage caching.

 

I can send you link to PS site, where are over 20000 products, running on VPS with load times <2s. So if you are running your site on dedicated server, and you have problem with load times, you should check all PS caching features, install MemCached and APC.

 

Regarding errors during upgrade - i agree that i also noticed some mysql errors during upgrade, but finaly it always worked fine.

 

Regarding multistores and big companies - there is big difference what one means with big/bigger companies - i'm sorry, that i used this term, i was meaning mid size companies with cca.50-200 employees. For example www.envirosax.com use Magento multistore as they have more languages on different domains.

 

As you mentioned ikea:

http://www.ikea.com/cz/

http://www.ikea.com/pl/

http://www.ikea.com/sk/

... etc... multistore?

 

You also metioned Mark and Spencer - check some european sites:

http://www.marks-and-spencer.cz/

http://www.marks-and-spencer.sk/

http://www.marks-and-spencer.pl/

... etc.. all on the same IP address... multistore?

 

Tesco (Czech republic and Slovakia):

http://www.itesco.cz/

http://www.itesco.sk/

same IP address... multi site?

 

The other companies you mentioned are not operating in my country, so i don't know.

 

All bigger companies use dedicated servers and if it's not enough they simply create server cloud... It's IMHO easier to implement new feature in one multistore/multisite than implementing it into 20 identical sites with only different data.

 

As i regulary check pretashop SVN, i can say they are making a lot of optimizations and as you may have noticed in just released 1.4.4 there is implemented new automatic upgrade feature - so you'll update your site in just one click With one click rollback. Moreover, they also implemented dynamic categories in BO (so no more endless scrolling on product pages when you have eg.500 categories). All these features are now also merged in 1.5 branch, so i can only say GO PRESTA TEAM GO!

 

On the other side, you are right there are some features missing - i personaly still miss order editor (it's only available as paid third party module), automated CSV/XML import based on reference...

 

Regarding the last question - yes i'd prefere multistore as most of my customers would love to use it.

[guest*]

Hello everyone,

 

To begin with, let me reassure you that the multi store implementation is not going to make PrestaShop more bloated or that due to it, all the developers are working on it and neglecting all the other parts of PrestaShop.

 

Hi Carl,

 

sorry for the critic. Let's hope so by goodness. I yesterday updated my 1.4.0.17 to 1.4.4. all is crashed. BO, Fronted... Links from modul tabs is not linking to token, but to an absolute link.... I'm still waiting for fix, because although I fixed the wrong forming .htaccess I had no luck to put my updated Shopversion to run...

I go online tonight definetly with the old, but really stable and bugless 1.4.0.17 version...

I planned to test 1.5. alpha, but with a crashed 1.4.4, don't think it's a good idea...

 

Also on BO there are still many unsolved problems. You cannot edit orders, split orders, have one order - two delivery slips- and one invoice for one single order.

It's not possible to add new products, change delivery methods, all this with an immediate cart refresh. All the tools I have bought/tried don't fulfill this possibility too.

The same problem are the loyalty points, when you are able to add products to order, so they are not refreshed by the new cart on any buign module.

 

So if paid modules do not fulfill what presta can't, I ask how it would be possible to manage one cart for more than one store... Sorry I cannot imagine that presta will be doing this in the next time. There are too many "construction sites" open...

 

My decision pro Presta was the really intuitive and light managing. I abandoned Magento project because of this problem. Also HHG Multistore I leaved for the same reason. Missing needed features and problems over problems with multishop, kicking my shops from the SERP's. Mutlishop is not just a modul you activate or not...

 

Regards

 

Conny

[OC2PS]

Your numbers are mostly guesses

Some numbers are "suppositions" where I have pointed that out. These aren't random guesses, but rather based on observation of similar and comparable projects.

Others (e.g. on the sticky, there are 23 uses, many of whom are inactive and possibly fake, that have requested the feature in 3.5 years) are statements of fact.

 

this thread doesn't seem to have to many members to be againt MS and showing it here

1. This thead is just a few days old, as compared to the sticky which is 3.5 years old.

2. Most users are not aware that such a feature is in the offing.

3. Most users don't care for such a feature but don't care about it either because they are not familiar with what harm this could do.

4. Most negative feedback is likely to pour in AFTER the feature is implemented and users realize what has happened.

5. Many users prefer to leave quietly rather than voice their issues once something seemingly irrevocable like multistore has been implemented

 

 

This statement only shows that you have no clue what so ever who the people are runing Prestashop or any online shop. You're just assume that they are like you, who like to test and love to install / run your own shop, but actually very high percentage of open source stores on the market are installed by hired consultants for customers. Customers that have very little knowledge in the systems that are out there. Most of them have not tried anything else.

The point whether installation is done by shop owner or professional is moot. The point I was making was about ease of use, and I think you just bolstered it by pointing to the group of shop owners who get someone else to do installation and have even less technical knowledge (and presumably the willingness to deal with complicated software)

 

All in all, as I said earlier

who wants to waste time dealing with software, when one could spend that time dealing with customers?

 

 

To begin with, let me reassure you that the multi store implementation is not going to make PrestaShop more bloated or that due to it, all the developers are working on it and neglecting all the other parts of PrestaShop.

 

It is not what the community wants and we really have at heart to satisfy our community.

 

about the fact that due to multi store we were neglecting the basic development of Prestashop, I can affirm you that it is not the case.

 

To add this option, it only took 5-10% of the development timeline, the remaining 90% was used to increase usability, to modify the way prices and taxes are managed, to globally enhance the ergonomics of the product as these key points are our main concern.

 

Carl, thanks so much for the reassurance. That sure is comforting. Developer focus was an important concern and it is good to hear that huge amount of resources were not diverted to multistore at the cost of other, possibly more vital fixes, features and improvements.

 

Since the beginning of multi store implementation, it has always been developed with the idea that it was an option and as such to have no impact for single store user. We even added the choice to activate it or not.

And so, if you decide to activate it, the only change you are going to notice is a new tab in the back office.

That is good to hear, but very hard to believe. So that there is absolute clarity without ambiguity, can you confirm that there will be no adverse impact on reliability and speed for single-store user...that there is no codebase or database "additions" unless one activates multistore?

 

 

So again, I can assure you that we will deliver a great product that will both please fan of single store and multi store.

Really appreciate your response, and am heartened by what you have said.

 

However, I continue to have concerns about the stability of such a massive new feature....I would still recommend forking the project....even if only to merge it back in 6-12 months...that way at the very least:

1) Everyone will have a good idea as to how multistore behaves in the wild

2) Existing PS users shall not be impacted, should there be any issues caused by code changes required due to multistore option

2) PS will have a good sense of the real demand for multistore feature

[OC2PS]

As you mentioned ikea:

http://www.ikea.com/cz/

http://www.ikea.com/pl/

http://www.ikea.com/sk/

... etc... multistore?

 

You also metioned Mark and Spencer - check some european sites:

http://www.marks-and-spencer.cz/

http://www.marks-and-spencer.sk/

http://www.marks-and-spencer.pl/

... etc.. all on the same IP address... multistore?

 

Tesco (Czech republic and Slovakia):

http://www.itesco.cz/

http://www.itesco.sk/

same IP address... multi site?

 

Single IP doesn't mean anything....it could be multistore OR multiple instances of single stores.

 

The sites in these examples are highly unlikely to be multistore, as one of the primary benefit seeked from multistore is common inventory management. However, the different countries usually have different legal entities and separate inventories. Details such as pricing etc are also different, negating another potential advantage of multistore. Add to this the fact that several different people would be managing the BO in the different locations, and there is hardly any advantage left for these companies to capitalize on.

 

Multistore is only really beneficial if you have something of an odd business model....like Dixons, Currys & PC World in the UK would benefit from multistore as they are owned by the same holding company, sell similar products and utilize a common inventory.

[damian5000]

The sad part is, these developers don't care 2 craps what we want. I would be surprised to find out the majority of them even frequent these boards more than once in a while.

 

Regardless, I'll waste my breath. The biggest thing they need to work on IMO is backwards compatibility with things from previous versions - a painless upgrade process and ability to use themes and such developed for other versions - without errors and inconsistencies.

 

It looks like they put out a new release almost every month. This is a bit ridiculous if it's not fully compatible with at least the last few months versions. By the time theme developers put a theme out, PS already has a new revision out.

[OC2PS]

The biggest thing they need to work on IMO is backwards compatibility with things from previous versions - a painless upgrade process and ability to use themes and such developed for other versions - without errors and inconsistencies.

 

It looks like they put out a new release almost every month. This is a bit ridiculous if it's not fully compatible with at least the last few months versions. By the time theme developers put a theme out, PS already has a new revision out.

 

You will be pleased to hear (I was) that they have implemented a Wordpress-like painless update process for the core and are planning to implement it for plugins.

http://forge.prestas.../browse/PSFV-19

 

Next, I totally take your point about themes, etc. I think we need a configurable theme that doesn't require coding, and pretty much eliminates the need for "custom" themes, by making the default theme very customizable. If this is done, then themes won't break anymore.

http://www.prestasho...__1#entry599967

[Raphaël Malié]

Hello

 

The sad part is, these developers don't care 2 craps what we want. I would be surprised to find out the majority of them even frequent these boards more than once in a while.

You know, these are not developpers who decide which kind of functions need to be in Prestashop or not, we don't have time to work on Prestashop + speak during hours of functions + read the forum + answer on the forum Trust me we are not even responsible of hungry in the world or Justin Bieber existence. But there is something true : we love our job, and we do our best to improve Prestashop as much as possible. And trust me, we often read the forum, we can't always answer because we have no time, that's why community managers are here, to read the forum, talk with you, and tell us problems you encounter.

 

The biggest thing they need to work on IMO is backwards compatibility with things from previous versions - a painless upgrade process and ability to use themes and such developed for other versions - without errors and inconsistencies.

 

It looks like they put out a new release almost every month. This is a bit ridiculous if it's not fully compatible with at least the last few months versions. By the time theme developers put a theme out, PS already has a new revision out.

Did you ever work on a big programm as developper ? If you did, you should know that compability is one of the biggest problem in informatic, because it's of a lot of more time spend to work on each new function. For example, if we want to improve the module system by creating a real API, we will have to take care of compatibility with old modules, and keep a lot of old code. When we have a bug on this new API, we have to apply fix on new code and old code, etc ... Anyway compatibility is our priority, but it's easier to say than to do, and we do our best to give the best free ecommerce solution we can

[Paul C]

I find it hard to get excited about this as a feature and always have. Do I think it's a fantastic new feature that should be added as a priority? No. Why? Because very few business models will benefit significantly enough (if at all) from it, and fundamentally this is software that's used to run businesses, not for fun.

 

The feedback I mostly get from people about Prestashop is that they would like more "stability" releases and less new feature implementations.

 

Paul

[Lindsayanng]

This whole thread paired with the responses from the "team leaders" and the "backers" of Multi-store has lost me.

 

For a project to be truly in the spirit of Open Source it needs to be driven by the community with one benevolent dictator and a team of people offering up the facts. The truth is here it seems that a few squeaky wheels and an over zealous developer have made the decision with absolutely no thought to usability / user experience and little thought to the ACTUAL user community.. not the one made up in your heads where a large percentage of us want to run a bunch of stores.

 

As the previous poster said.. The act of running multiple stores from one store is for spammers, crap sellers, and wannabe big companies.. the REAL big companies would 1.) never do that and 2.) never touch prestashop

[webrod]

Hi,

 

I didn't read the full thread, but I am a bit surprised that one could think that the multi site feature has a low interest!!

 

I am right now trying to decide between PS and magento, so I read hundred of discussions on the web, to get feedback from people who actually did the implementation of the 2 solutions.

 

I read so many times that people went to Magento because of the multisite feature!!

 

I still have PS in the balance because I know, thanks to this thread that multisite IS in 1.5.

Otherwise I would have probably removed PS from my list...

 

Multisite is a MUST.

 

I have done myself an ecommerce website (from scratch, my own ecommerce website) with multi site feature.

There is no way that it impacts the performance significantely!

The impact is just at the time of displaying a list of products, you have an additionnal JOIN between the product table and the table that store the list of websites linked to the products, with a WHERE to select only the current website....

The only impact, is not about performance, more about additional tabs or screens in the backoffice, so it takes more time to configure each product, but this is the price to pay to have several web sites sharing one DB!!

And again, no performance impact for our customers.

 

If I did it, for sure a team like PS can do it

 

So please do not remove this feature from 1.5

 

Regarding compatibility between versions, this is a problem for sure.

But really really difficlut to handle for any developpers, there is no miracle...

 

Cheers,

Rod

[mohsart]

I've just upgraded to 1.4.3 from 1.2.4 and I doubt very much that I'll upgrade again until maybe 1.6

Why?

For example...

- I need a author field, for books

- I need eg authors to be searchable from the product page (click the name and see all his/her books)

- I need a field for Book Series, searchable as for authors

- I need a extra tab with some custom code

- I want the attributes sorted

- I want a news/blog module

I could go on...

This I have/had to implement myself, with some help from the community, but for every upgrade I must do it again.

 

Sure MS is cool, I could use it setting up a store for my wholesale business. But wait, I have less than 10 wholesale customers, supplying them with a spreadsheet works Just Fine.

 

If I would vote for new features I'd say...

- Skip the Product On Sale checkbox! I always forget to uncheck that bugger when a sale period runs out. Why not have that feature connected with the discount?

- A standalone app for editing products! Changing things takes waaay too long time using the web interface.

- A Point of Sale module! Though not terribly needed by me, still a far way more useful than MS.

- A decent discounting module! Eg offer X% reduction if ordering for more than $Y

- Differntial free shipping! Domestic/European/World customers should have to order for different amounts to get free shipping.

- More choises regarding shipping calculation! Per weight or per sum just isn't enough.

Again, I could go on...

 

/Mats

PS I'm Swedish, and I will set up a couple of more shops soon. Still, Any One of the points above comes higher up on my wishlist than a multishop

[Mike Kranzler]

Trust me we are not even responsible of hungry in the world or Justin Bieber existence.

 

I'm sorry Raphaël, but now that you've given us the option, we will be blaming you for Justin Bieber.

 

As for concerns about PrestaShop's presence on these forums, I can tell you that we are currently making a major push to provide you with a better presence from our team on these forums and to also facilitate communication between you and our development team, even if they can't always be on here themselves.

 

In fact, I submit a daily report directly to our development team about the biggest concerns and bugs brought up on the forums. So please know that your questions, comments and requests are heard, and we're hard at work trying to implement for you.

 

If you ever do have concerns that your voice is not being heard on the PrestaShop forums, I invite you to send me a PM so that I can be made aware of it if it hasn't been brought to my attention already.

 

As for Bieber, Raphaël is going to have to be on his own with that one. Good luck!

[OC2PS]

Sure MS is cool, I could use it setting up a store for my wholesale business. But wait, I have less than 10 wholesale customers, supplying them with a spreadsheet works Just Fine.

 

Actually you don't need multistore for that - you can assign the wholesellers to a group "Wholesellers" and set up a certain discount or different price for them.

 

 

[mohsart]

True that, OC2PS, I have it like that today actually. Only half-assed though since they keep askin for that spread-sheet intead of logging in...

 

/Mats

[OC2PS]

I'm sorry Raphaël, but now that you've given us the option, we will be blaming you for Justin Bieber.

 

Well said! We will blame Raphaël for Bieber

 

As for concerns about PrestaShop's presence on these forums, I can tell you that we are currently making a major push to provide you with a better presence from our team on these forums and to also facilitate communication between you and our development team, even if they can't always be on here themselves.

 

Mike, it is encouraging to hear that PS is planning to REALLY listen to the community. Ultimately, the more love PS gives to the community, the more it will get back.

 

While one concern regarding multistore has been addressed by Carl with the information that only 5-10% of developer time was devoted to it (hope we can get a reassurance that in the next months the time resources devoted to this would be capped at 5%?)

 

However, there are other concerns:

Carl mentioned that there would be no impact on single store users. But he has been unable to confirm that there will be no adverse impact on reliability and speed for single-store user...that there is no codebase or database "additions" unless one activates multistore?

 

The overwhelming sense is that when 1.5.0 is released, nobody would have any clue as to how multistore behaves in the wild . While this is okay for minor enhancements, it is dangerous for such massive changes as multistore. I do believe that it is imperative to observe for a few months how the multistore code behaves in the wild before the majority of the users feel reasonably reassured. Therefore, I recommend forking the project....even if only to merge it back in 6-12 months...that way at the very least:

1) Everyone will have a good idea as to how

2) Existing PS users shall not be impacted, should there be any issues caused by code changes required due to multistore option

2) PS will have a good sense of the real demand for multistore feature

 

 

The key aspects that users care about are:

1) Reliability and stability

2) Performance

(without the above two, new features aren't worth much as the above can actually make store owners lose money)

3) One-click upgrades (I understand Michaël is working on that http://forge.prestas.../browse/PSFV-19)

4) Configurable default theme (http://forge.prestas.../browse/PSFV-42). One problem at the moment is that as a store owner, I pay for a developer to create a theme (obviously I can't use themes from the PS set of themes...I want my store to be unique...I don't even know why developers bother selling paid themes...unlike paid modules, themes are not commodities that many people can use)...and every time a new version of PS is released, I wonder whether it would break my theme...and if I would have to pay good money again to have it fixed...but if PS releases a configurable theme like Wordpress Weaver, then for most users, most customizations are made within admin control panel, and there is reassurance and confidence that updates won't break the theme.

5) Better guest checkout process flow (http://www.prestasho...ocess-redesign/) - as UI expert Jared Spool argues (http://www.uie.com/a...million_button/), this is real money we are talking about.

6) Integration with more European carriers such as GLS (http://www.prestasho...t-shipping-gls/)

7) Integration with other Opensource projects like Wordpress and vTiger (http://www.prestasho...est-vtiger-crm/)

8) Import from other ecommerce projects like Magento, Zen and Opencart (I know you have a generic import...but it's too technical & complex for most shop owners, and too rudimentary regardless)

[Carl Favre]

 

While one concern regarding multistore has been addressed by Carl with the information that only 5-10% of developer time was devoted to it (hope we can get a reassurance that in the next months the time resources devoted to this would be capped at 5%?)

 

Do not worry, multistore will not take more than 5-10% of developer time.

 

However, there are other concerns:

Carl mentioned that there would be no impact on single store users. But he has been unable to confirm that there will be no adverse impact on reliability and speed for single-store user...that there is no codebase or database "additions" unless one activates multistore?

Multistore is going to need new database tables but these tables will not be used unless you select the multistore option in PrestaShop. So no impact on single store users. Hope it reassures you .

 

About 1.5, you can already check it, we have a dev version that you can download, so this way you can see how it behaves before the gold candidate is released.

 

 

 

[guest*]

For example...

- I need a author field, for books

- I need eg authors to be searchable from the product page (click the name and see all his/her books)

- I need a field for Book Series, searchable as for authors

- I need a extra tab with some custom code

- I want the attributes sorted

- I want a news/blog module

I could go on...

 

 

For this you don't need to have a multishop. Some of your request you can already realize with presta 1.4.X

 

- Use the features and you can add authors and also own fields.

- Blog/news you can realize with CMS pages. Add a new blog and fill it with your news. On add-ons there is too a free blog module you can download.

- Extra tab - on the forum you will find how to realize this. It seems that only a few quantity of user really need this.

- Authors searchable. Use the manufacturer for this. To have the manufacturer on your product page you can use for ex. this module, or any other filter possibility (as download or paid solution)

 

I agree with you that one missing thing is the possibility to add ISBN and also search with this or search by UPC/EAN fronted and BO. This is a must have, for those who sells books. And too that the attributes sort also is a must have requested in the past more than once.

[guest*]

 

 

About 1.5, you can already check it, we have a dev version that you can download, so this way you can see how it behaves before the gold candidate is released. [/color]

 

 

Where is this link, I already added my interest to one of the posts in bug tracker. No response till now. I'm still waiting...

[OC2PS]

About 1.5, you can already check it, we have a dev version that you can download, so this way you can see how it behaves before the gold candidate is released. [/color]

 

 

Where is this link.

 

http://www.prestashop.com/en/downloads/#svn

[OC2PS]

http://www.prestasho.../downloads/#svn

 

From this page it seems that PS is indeed being forked.

 

SVN path for 1.4 http://svn.prestashop.com/trunk/

 

SVN path for 1.5 http://svn.prestashop.com/branches/1.5.x/

[guest*]

About 1.5, you can already check it, we have a dev version that you can download, so this way you can see how it behaves before the gold candidate is released. [/color]

 

 

Where is this link.

 

http://www.prestashop.com/en/downloads/#svn

 

This I tried one week ago. I cannot install. It stocks on site 3.

[guest*]

Sorry for my stupid question, but how do I install a version from SVN ? I have to download file per file from there ?

[OC2PS]

Sorry for my stupid question, but how do I install a version from SVN ? I have to download file per file from there ?

 

I think you have to click the big fat download button on top of the page

[OC2PS]

I mean next to

Prestashop 1.5.0.0

Alpha version

 

there is a big fat button that says "Download Prestashop", and under the button, written in red you will see

 

Only for test, NOT for production

[guest*]

I mean next to

Prestashop 1.5.0.0

Alpha version

 

there is a big fat button that says "Download Prestashop", and under the button, written in red you will see

 

Only for test, NOT for production

As I said it does not work, i.e. the install stocks on site 3 without any error information.

 

A trunk-version I cannot install, only replace files, right ?

[OC2PS]

A trunk-version I cannot install, only replace files, right ?

Unfortunately, yes, as far as I know...

 

 

 

[guest*]

So I have to wait for reponse on the bug... Otherwise I cannot install the 1.5. I tried several times on a new, cleand DB, so not as upgrade, but as clean new version on my IIS, so live and also not as WAMP/XAMP.

[mohsart]

 

For this you don't need to have a multishop. Some of your request you can already realize with presta 1.4.X

Exactly my point, I need many things, such as a standalone app to edit my products, but sure as hell I don't need a multishop.

I use tags for authors atm, since eg manufacturers only allows a one to one relationship and many books have more than one author.

While this is OK for me since I don't really need tags as tags anyways, I am a tiny bit interested in how to use features for authors and your suggestion to use manufacturers to make them searchable kind of, well you lost me there.

But don't sweat it, remember that the list you quoted are issues that I've solved. There are, however, tons of issues that I'd rather see you put these 5-10% of resources into, before even looking at multishop.

 

/Mats

[OC2PS]

Carl, Any comments on what's being done or not being done, or any other thoughts on the following?

The key aspects that users care about are:

 

1) Reliability and stability

 

2) Performance

 

(without the above two, new features aren't worth much as the above can actually make store owners lose money)

 

3) One-click upgrades (I understand Michaël is working on that http://forge.prestas.../browse/PSFV-19)

 

4) Configurable default theme (http://forge.prestas.../browse/PSFV-42). One problem at the moment is that as a store owner, I pay for a developer to create a theme (obviously I can't use themes from the PS set of themes...I want my store to be unique...I don't even know why developers bother selling paid themes...unlike paid modules, themes are not commodities that many people can use)...and every time a new version of PS is released, I wonder whether it would break my theme...and if I would have to pay good money again to have it fixed...but if PS releases a configurable theme like Wordpress Weaver, then for most users, most customizations are made within admin control panel, and there is reassurance and confidence that updates won't break the theme.

 

5) Better guest checkout process flow (http://forge.prestas.../browse/PSFV-47) - as UI expert Jared Spool argues (http://www.uie.com/a...million_button/), this is real money we are talking about.

 

6) Integration with more European carriers such as GLS ( http://forge.prestas...owse/PSCFI-2344)

 

7) Integration with other Opensource projects like Wordpress and vTiger (http://forge.prestas...owse/PSCFI-3147 or http://forge.prestas...owse/PSCFI-3146)

 

8) Import from other ecommerce projects like Magento, Zen and Opencart (I know you have a generic import...but it's too technical & complex for most shop owners, and too rudimentary regardless) http://forge.prestas...owse/PSCFI-3149

[henric]

This is what we are trying to highlight which is not a business decision rather, it seems that the decision is based on the interests of developers. If a correct analysis was performed before the multi-store operation, would have made a bad business idea.

[Carl Favre]

Hi OC2PS,

 

For the last few points I need to check with the devs as I do not have the information. I will come back a bit later to answer them.

 

Carl, Any comments on what's being done or not being done, or any other thoughts on the following?

The key aspects that users care about are:

 

1) Reliability and stability

 

It is always one of our main concern and 1.5 should be no exception.

 

It should be even more reliable and stable.

 

2) Performance

 

Same as above, we work hard to increase PrestaShop performance.

 

(without the above two, new features aren't worth much as the above can actually make store owners lose money)

 

We know these 2 points are important for the community and so we pay attention to improve them

 

3) One-click upgrades (I understand Michaël is working on that http://forge.prestas.../browse/PSFV-19)

 

Implemented in 1.5

 

4) Configurable default theme (http://forge.prestas.../browse/PSFV-42). One problem at the moment is that as a store owner, I pay for a developer to create a theme (obviously I can't use themes from the PS set of themes...I want my store to be unique...I don't even know why developers bother selling paid themes...unlike paid modules, themes are not commodities that many people can use)...and every time a new version of PS is released, I wonder whether it would break my theme...and if I would have to pay good money again to have it fixed...but if PS releases a configurable theme like Wordpress Weaver, then for most users, most customizations are made within admin control panel, and there is reassurance and confidence that updates won't break the theme.

 

 

Compatibility with previous versions is also one of the points developed in 1.5. So you should have lesser problem when updating PrestaShop.

 

 

5) Better guest checkout process flow (http://forge.prestas.../browse/PSFV-47) - as UI expert Jared Spool argues (http://www.uie.com/a...million_button/), this is real money we are talking about.

 

I do not have information about this one. I must check with the devs.

 

6) Integration with more European carriers such as GLS ( http://forge.prestas...owse/PSCFI-2344)

 

Same as above, I need to check with the devs.

 

 

7) Integration with other Opensource projects like Wordpress and vTiger (http://forge.prestas...owse/PSCFI-3147 or http://forge.prestas...owse/PSCFI-3146)

 

 

Same as above, I need to check with the devs.

 

8) Import from other ecommerce projects like Magento, Zen and Opencart (I know you have a generic import...but it's too technical & complex for most shop owners, and too rudimentary regardless) http://forge.prestas...owse/PSCFI-3149

 

Same as above, I need to check with the devs.

[ukbaz]

Add to the above list a reliable, built in way for the thousands, if not millions of merchants who use in-house Credit card processing machines to accept cards online without paying for a Payment service provider. This is a huge gap in the payment modules and I'm very surpised that no such 'offline credit/debit card processing' module is not a standard part of the core modules.

 

Baz

[OC2PS]

4) Configurable default theme (http://forge.prestas.../browse/PSFV-42). One problem at the moment is that as a store owner, I pay for a developer to create a theme (obviously I can't use themes from the PS set of themes...I want my store to be unique...I don't even know why developers bother selling paid themes...unlike paid modules, themes are not commodities that many people can use)...and every time a new version of PS is released, I wonder whether it would break my theme...and if I would have to pay good money again to have it fixed...but if PS releases a configurable theme like Wordpress Weaver, then for most users, most customizations are made within admin control panel, and there is reassurance and confidence that updates won't break the theme.

 

Compatibility with previous versions is also one of the points developed in 1.5. So you should have lesser problem when updating PrestaShop.

 

Good to hear that it would be lesser of a problem. However, it would be really good for the store owners, and consequently for the Prestashop team if the default theme was configurable like Wordpress Weaver. It changes updates into a "non-issue" as opposed to "lesser of an issue"....and that's not all...there are many more advantages to this...too many to list here.

 

Also, waiting to hear about the outcome of your discussions with developers regarding the other points.

[hellothere]

I am one of the PS users who is in favor of the developers putting resources towards multistore functionality, and here's why - it makes good business sense. If you don't see the value in being able to set up a parallel store, I would suggest you should think about your catalog, your brand, and your market. You can fork your identity and increase your overall web presence, this is the magic of e-commerce.

 

If you sell a large-ish catalog, with many categories and subcategories, you could split your catalog into more niche-focused inventory, with a certain amount of overlap. Create another sister brand, and use one to promote the other. You don't even need another language to justify this - all you need is a slightly different focus. Just choose two different segments of the population depending on what you are carrying and call the store something else, market it in totally different arenas, and watch your sales grow.

 

Most shops that are one brand, one presence, one niche are a missed opportunity to market in multiple different populations. If you spend $500/mo on advertising, you can alternate which site you promote (using different markets, different blogs, etc) but then have prominent ads played on one site featuring the other, not to mention hooking into the other site's catalog directly (recommended product from our sister site) without having to force the user to login or change their cart.

 

It is well known that having too big and diverse of a catalog is an obstacle for the user to actually check out, most abandon their carts because the offering is too vast. If you have multiple domains, you make the user feel like their time is more productive as they are searching multiple websites.

 

I hate to sound like I know more about this than anyone else, I don't think it's a bad idea to fork PS into a multiple user version (like wordpress), as has been suggested elsewhere. But to dismiss multistore as a waste of time? I'd advocate for a wider understanding of branding, niche marketing, and leveraging multiple presences in harmony as opposed to restricting yourself to one brand with a massive catalog. Why not put the software to work for you and cast a much wider net? Once you do the work of uploading a catalog and setting a shop set up, wouldn't it make sense to leverage that investment into another domain, another look, and another market? Unless you sell ONE brand of item, to ONE market, and that's it, you have everything to gain from this strategy.

 

go multistore, go!!

 

ps - I am not an expert of any kind, nor do I have an empire of stores to point to. I am just getting started, but I have been watching ecommerce for a long time and I simply disclosed how I am going to approach it. I don't mean to offend anyone by contradicting their opinion with my own, it's just free and possibly wrong observations. So what I say + $1.00 will buy you a cup of coffee. Happy fishing!

[OC2PS]

You can fork your identity and increase your overall web presence, this is the magic of e-commerce.

 

It's nothing new or unique to ecommerce - it's the classic marketing chestnut "house of brands v branded house". Numerous studies have shown that branded house (i.e. single brand) is way more valuable.

 

In terms of a tiny to medium sized business thinking in context of ecommerce, consider this: multiple brands means splitting your resources...this impacts practically everything, but let me take one simple example: SEO. If you focus all your SEO efforts (valuable content, submission to directories, getting backlinks, etc) on one single domain, there is a higher probability of getting to the top of Google results (because the PageRank would likely be higher compared to if you split the efforts (which would disperse/leak PageRank). Same is true for brand impact among customers - building new brands is very expensive, time consuming, and ultimately ineffective compared to leveraging a single existing brand.

 

 

If you sell a large-ish catalog, with many categories and subcategories, you could split your catalog into more niche-focused inventory, with a certain amount of overlap. Create another sister brand, and use one to promote the other. You don't even need another language to justify this - all you need is a slightly different focus. Just choose two different segments of the population depending on what you are carrying and call the store something else, market it in totally different arenas, and watch your sales grow.

You don't need multistore for that. Just install multiple instances of PS single store, and off you go...sellling on as many domains and to as many niches as your heart desires.

[OC2PS]

1) Reliability and stability

2) Performance

(without the above two, new features aren't worth much as the above can actually make store owners lose money)

 

I guess I included security in reliability. Recent events show that this area needs more attention.

 

P.S. Carl, any word on the items that you took to the developers?

[Raphaël Malié]

Back from ecommerce show in Paris where I could discuss with a lot of Prestashop users, I can tell you that multistore function is really wanted. More than half of people who talked with me had some need with multistore to finish their projects or use Prestashop instead of Magento.

[OC2PS]

Hope:

1) this was a representative sample of store owners, not a gathering of high-end developers who just want to be at the cutting edge

2) all of them understood what is meant by "multi store" here...judging by responses in this thread, not everybody understands, and sometimes people associate with "multi store" certain functions that are already available...

[andriesinfoserv]

i don't care either way about ms for now.

however on the topic of improving prestashop...

i would recommend taking a page from cms made simple on the whole structure of the script as far as templates and theming goes.

*upgrading to new versions takes me way too long right now because i had to modify so much of the core to customize layout, functionality, etc. i'm sure if i just changed colors and plugged products in upgrading would be a breeze, but that's not happening with anything i do.

*why is shipping so screwed up? i'm glad ps is trying to update the wiki but right now it just shows some very basic info. I had to manually add a database field to be able to save changes to carriers, because of buggy update process. usps module still doesn't show up in cart. still not sure if the current module will actually work if configured properly or if i need to delete the carriers provided by module and set the zones, etc. up manually with newly created carrier. I guess we have to search the forums and bug reports to determine how the different shipping modules will interact with each other! the module help file leaves much to be desired. in cms made simple the module help files tell you the myriad ways you can modify the deceptively simple module. in ps it doesn't even tell you what you need to config for it to work under ideal circumstances!

*live edit should be for every element on the page but we can insert a tag if we didn't have to do a server scavenger hunt to make a change.

*don't tell me "this module can't be transplanted to this hook", please.

*security needs to be as absolute as possible.

*i'm hoping the improvements made recently to product importing functionality allows me to import products in a sane manner.

*what's the hold up on the usa support for ebay module? would it help if we harassed ebay?

 

That being said, ps has many strengths and much potential. But, the forum and bug report searches by users should be for modification and additional functionality not for trying to get 1 working store with basic options.

Edited September 25, 2011 by andriesinfoserv (see edit history)

[OC2PS]

You may want to go to http://www.facebook.com/prestashop?sk=questions and vote.

[Andreas1]

Interesting thread have had the same issue to. But I think I have it now. Just going to test run it on a mirrored site.

[the hat lady]

There are other reasons for Mulit stores.

 

One is to have as store for your retail clients and one for your wholesale clients.

 

You may wish to offer different specials.

 

The only issues I am really concerned with is back office inventory where if the stock is maintained and adjusted for both no matter from which site the purchase comes.

 

What is see has that worldwide there are different uses and we need the flexiblity to cater for the variety of business approaches.

[OC2PS]

One is to have as store for your retail clients and one for your wholesale clients.

 

You may wish to offer different specials.

 

That is absolutely NOT a reason for multistore. This can be easily done using user groups in single store....

 

As I keep saying, many people supporting multistore do not know what PS multistore would add...I don't see it clearly defined anywhere on this website...and many features some people assume to be "multistore" features are actually single-store features that are already available.

[the hat lady]

The user group is not an option when you want the front page to be a different company name and logo and url.

[OC2PS]

If your 2 shops are for different companies, then you really should be managing stock separately and would do well to have 2 separate instances of PS running.

[OC2PS]

http://blog.ablecomm...-1-google-rules

The latest trend in ecommerce is what merchants and software vendors call a “multi-store” feature – the ability to sell your products on different websites. For merchants marketing the same products over multiple domains, you should be aware that this type of multi-store solution is in direct violation of Google’s site content policy....Google is at war with the content farms....You may think you’re safe by creating different themed sites, but the Google experts use advanced algorithms to weed out duplicate content. Even when framed inside unique websites, Google will check the IP address to see if it’s coming from the same server. Google also checks the domain records to see if the content is coming from the same owner.

 

http://blog.ablecomm...-1-google-rules

“Back links” are another issue that is given the same amount of marketing effort as SEO. Long ago, Google incorporated the idea of back links into their ever changing and secretive ranking methodology. Back links, under the logical premise, means that the more people linking to a page will be a distinct measure of its importance. For multi-store merchants, are you willing to double or triple your marketing budget in order to build multiple niche websites, in the hopes of gaining incremental business? Most, if not all, merchants would be better off spending their time and effort building back links on one website rather than many. Quite simply, in Google terms, 333 back links for 3 websites does not even come close to ranking as high as 999 back links for 1 website.

 

http://blog.ablecomm...-1-google-rules

There are software vendors that recommend multi-store to all merchants, big and small, even though the vast majority of merchants would actually realize a net loss in profits with a multi-store approach. Now that multi-store has been out awhile, it’s easy to find merchants that jumped into the water early, and now are jumping out as they realize the facts of this folly.

 

http://blog.ablecomm...zation-and-uses

Ecommerce software has become complex though the years with literally hundreds of common features which require complex programming and frequent database calls to operate. When you add in the additional calls to separate stores from a single database, it’s easy to understand why it would be slower.

 

http://blog.ablecomm...zation-and-uses

Up until version 7.0, AbleCommerce had supported multiple stores per database, but we dropped it to improve performance and ease of customization. There is less code to deal with, and it’s much easier to test – hence the popularity of our new version with developers.

[OC2PS]

Will multistore function increase adoption of PS by differentiating it from the bunch? Don't think so!

 

osCommerce: http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/1730

Opencart: http://www.opencart..../feature&path=4

Magento: http://www.magentoco...management/view

Spree: https://github.com/b...pree-multistore

Satchmo: http://www.satchmopr...v/features.html

Ubercart: http://www.ubercart....hat_is_ubercart

PHP multishop: http://sourceforge.n...ects/multishop/

Oxid esales: http://www.oxid-esal...mall-capability

Nitrosell: http://www.nitrosell...i-store-edition

iScripts multicart: http://www.iscripts.com/multicart/

Lotuspool: http://lotuspool.org/

etc

 

You know what will make PS stand out? Simplicity, speed, customizability/extendability, reliability!

[OC2PS]

Multistore feature: shared user accounts

This is a hot button issue, especially in Europe. PS (and any vendors thinking of implementing this) should seek legal advice on this.

[Raphaël Malié]

Hello OC2PC,

your argument where your list all other ecommerce solution is not really acceptable. On the contrary it's because other solutions implement multishop feature we should implement it too. Since this solution exist everywhere, it's a proof that there is a lot of demand about it

 

Regards

[OC2PS]

On the contrary it's because other solutions implement multishop feature we should implement it too.

 

If you want to be a "me too" store, then yes. However, my point is that this is not going to make PS stand out.

 

In marketing terms,

many of the software developers figured that multistore would be a "Driver" for their brand in that it would differentiate them from the rest of the bunch and that this differentiation actually matters to a lot of people. Truth is, at best this could have been Fool's Gold in that the differentiation would have been irrelevant to the vast majority.

 

As it turns out, multistore is at best a Neutral because pretty much every software had the same thought and they all started developing it so there's nothing by way of differentiation. Additionally, the feature is relevant for a very very tiny fraction of ecommerce software users.

 

So, it boils down to this: does PS want to continue devoting resources to something that will NOT differentiate it from other software (and even if it did - e.g. if the feature were launched 4 years ago - then would have differentiated it to a small proportion of users), or does it want to fulfill the needs of the vast majority of users - speed, reliability, freedom from bugs, security, usability/ease-of-use, flexibility/extendability, etc

 

The temptation to say "both" would undoubtedly be great. But that's a recipe for disaster. You can do one or the other. Irrespective of how many resources you have, they are still finite and you have to make tough allocation decisions.

 

You may say there's no effect on single-store users. But can you truthfully say 1.5.0 wouldn't have been released yet had you not decided to include multistore? Or that skeleton theme wouldn't have been part of 1.5.0?

 

I believe that when everyone is complicating their code (spaghetti code as Able Commerce calls it) and architecture and database structure, then it would be a good strategy to cater to 99% of folks by providing a fast, clean, reliable system.

 

But of course, you can dismiss my assertions above as a matter of opinion.

 

Since this solution exist everywhere, it's a proof that there is a lot of demand about it

 

Not necessarily.

 

In fact, I believe that that a vocal minority of folks who may or may not have understood the multistore feature well managed to convince several different software projects to implement this. The silent majority certainly did not understand how this would affect them and there was no opposition. As you will see, in several cases the feature is implemented as a plugin, which is effect-neutral to those who don't want it, but in cases where it has been built into the core, it is a brand new feature that's just been implemented.

 

Then, obviously, you can see software like Able Commerce who were among the first to implement this, but have realized since then that the real demand is very low and the feature does more harm than good and have therefore retracted it.

 

PHP multishop, whose whole USP is multistore since 2005, has had fewer than 100 downloads.

 

If multistore were very important, you would expect the multistore plugin to feature among top plugins for osCommerce, right? Well, it doesn't feature in the top 30. In fact, while osCommerce had 3.5M downloads in the past year, the developer of the multistore plugin was so discouraged by the low take-up that he abandoned the project several months ago. I hate to repeat myself, but so did Able Commerce who discovered low usage of the feature and too many complications caused by it.

 

Now, I know PS have been working on this for over 2 years now, including at least 1 year of coding. I can't ask you to abandon your baby. I know 1.5 Alpha contains this feature and 1.5.0 will as well.

 

What I am saying is this folks: Please create a fork for it so that you understand the demand for the feature as well as prevent any adverse affect on single-store users before the feature is tested in the real world. You can test and test and test but there is no substitute for the real world with real users. As Wordpress founder Matt Mullenweg says

http://ma.tt/2010/11/one-point-oh/

Usage is like oxygen for ideas. You can never fully anticipate how an audience is going to react to something you’ve created until it’s out there. That means every moment you’re working on something without it being in the public it’s actually dying, deprived of the oxygen of the real world.

 

At the very bare minimum, create some sort of mechanism to accurately figure out how many installations are actually using the feature (i.e. after the release of 1.5.0).

[RickieSee]

Multistore to have as standard is a bad idea.

 

Have it as an optional extra.

 

Don't compromise any development time on it.

[olea]

@OC2PS,

what is your activity ? merchant ? developper ?...

[Mike Kranzler]

Multistore to have as standard is a bad idea.

 

Have it as an optional extra.

 

Don't compromise any development time on it.

 

Hi Rickie,

If you check Carl's post near the beginning of this thread, not only is multi-store only a small fraction of our development focus, but it also will have no effect on any stores who do not choose to use it. If you don't want to use it, you don't need to. It won't affect your store or how it runs. We're implementing this due to very large demand for it as a feature, but the majority of our focus still is and always will be on the core software.

 

-Mike

[OC2PS]

@OC2PS,

what is your activity ? merchant ? developper ?...

Merchant

[OC2PS]

@Olea: Was there a particular reason you asked?

[olea]

I was wondering what could be your activity to be so opposed to this feature.

 

I now understand that, as a merchant, you absolutely don't need this feature but prefer to see the team working on other features.

Which features for exemple do you like to see in Prestashop ?

 

But, there is a lot of merchants that need this feature for their business and their way of working.

What I understand is that the team is working on this feature, keeping the compatibility with the mono-shop feature : event if the multi-shop feature is embedded in the solution, it will still be possible to install a mono-shop prestashop, without taking care of the multi-shop configuration

[OC2PS]

even if the multi-shop feature is embedded in the solution, it will still be possible to install a mono-shop prestashop, without taking care of the multi-shop configuration

 

My worry is this (if software is multishop capable, even if I use a monoshop):

1) This complicates code, and therefore:

i) Shop becomes slower

ii) Shop is more error prone

iii) Complex code makes it more vulnerable to security holes

iv) Adding features is exponentially harder - so any other features that are needed will take longer for developers to implement henceforth

2) There would likely be more/complex databases & queries making shop slower

3) Of course, there is always also the worry that due to this feature, there's tons of other things slowed down....I guess skeleton theme would definitely have been in 1.5 had it not been for multishop.

 

I keep hearing that there are a lot of merchants that need this feature. I don't believe that there's a perceptible-sized population of merchants who understand what this feature is about and its different aspects, AND still want it. But this is just a matter of opinion. At the very least I want PS to deploy something in 1.5 to scientifically measure the proportion of commercial (not demo or test) multishop deployments (v monoshop ones) so that we can revisit this debate in 6 months and have a more informed and meaningful discussion. A further 6 months down, we could see how many of those that started with multistore actually stuck with it.

 

Regarding features, there's plenty that I'd like to see, of which some I've discussed here http://www.prestasho...post__p__614569

Here's some of them:

• speed (cache pages as static, minify, smushit, store media in subdomain,use CSS sprites, Google CDN for jQuery etc, combine CSS into one, CSS at top, JS at bottom),
  
• stability, reliability,
  
• security,
  
• a WP Weaver like customizable theme,
  
• easier-to-use admin UI, better shopfront UI (e.g. better guest checkout)
  
• Integration with vTiger, Wordpress, Joomla, phpBB, Gallery 3, SEO panel, etc
  
• Automatic Google Translate translations of product/category/CMS details
  
• Proper, language-sensitive product review and rating system
  
• Integration with more European carriers e.g. GLS
  
• One-click upgrades
  
• Much more useful (and legal) than SSO (a supposed benefit of multishop) between shops would be PS signup with Facebook
  
• enter and edit orders in BO
  
• offline card processing
  
• drop shipping
  
• social/sharing
  
• etc
  

[OC2PS]

By the way, if you like any of the above features, please vote for them in the tracker!

[OC2PS]

Interesting discussion from Opencart forums: http://forum.opencar...pic.php?t=11883

 

The bigwigs there (Qphoria et al), including people who vehemently supported multistore and use it (e.g. Xsecrets) reckon that fewer than 10% of people use the feature.

 

We've done this before for 5 or 6 clients, but I would say that Q's 10% figure is about right if that high.

 

But also an interesting discussion to see how people propose to use the feature (or what they imagine the feature is)

[Fabien Serny]

Hi OC2PS,

 

I agree with you, not a majority of merchants will use this feature. But 10% is not a few

If we didn't make the features only used by 10% of the merchants, I don't think there will be a lot of features in PS ^^

Each merchant use differents features, it's why PS make happy a lot of merchants with its functionnalities

 

Nb : Don't take the lines under as a real argument ^^

You can't imagine (really can't imagine) the numbers of merchants who said me "I'm not sure to make my shop with PrestaShop, because one day if my shop grow up and if I want to have multi shop feature, I won't be able to do it". I'm not saying this rationnal but there it is.

[OC2PS]

I agree with you, not a majority of merchants will use this feature.

That's a start. With the zeal around the feature, some people have been trying to telling us that *most* merchants will use this. Hokum, I say.

 

But 10% is not a few

If we didn't make the features only used by 10% of the merchants, I don't think there will be a lot of features in PS ^^

Each merchant use differents features, it's why PS make happy a lot of merchants with its functionnalities

Theoretically you are right. 10% is not negligible by any stretch of imagination - in fact, it is quite substantial. If something is useful for 10% of the customer base (10k out of 100k), then it deserves to be considered.

 

However, there are other considerations:

• The Opencart discussion implies that the usage is actually significantly lower than 10% - they say 10% sounds too high. Now, you can argue that Opencart have not done a great job with the feature, and that when Prestashop does it, it will be much better and a higher proportion on merchants will use it. I'd say hubris. The logic could apply to the cart as a whole, and to absolute numbers - but when it comes to proportions, I think that should be fairly similar across different platforms. Additionally, since Opencart was one of the first to offer this feature, if we were to go by the logic presented ever so often on this topic (lots of people want this, and they don't use Prestashop because it doesn't have multistore), then they should have benefitted from the trend, and the proportions would get smaller as other carts make this feature available. P.S. PS has grown from 40k to 100k in 18 months without implementing this feature, even as many other carts have already implemented it but have continued to lose ground. By itself, that may not mean a lot, but it *could* be an indicator of something.
  
• As we can clearly see from this thread as well as the Opencart thread, many people claiming to need multistore do not actually know what it is. This is not necessarily their fault - the definition is somewhat ambiguous and each ecommerce platform seems to have its own interpretation. To make matters worse, often these interpretations are not public. For example, today, less than 4 weeks before the RC1, we still don't know what exactly Prestashop's multistore feature will include. That being said, it is pretty clear that some expectations of multistore proponents can just as easily be met with existing single store features while there are other expectations which shall not be met even when multistore is launched.
  
• Product management is a delicate balancing act. You have to look at customer needs, prospective customer needs, and unvoiced needs. And then you have to prioritize. More often than not (though not always) the prioritization should be heavily influenced by what proportion of current or future users will benefit from it, the amount of benefit to each user, and the amount of effort required to implement it. In that regard I think multistore fails the test - there are still many things that a merchants at large will benefit from, many of them are low hanging fruit with big benefits, and multistore requires an immense amount of effort/resources.
  
• I started by saying if 10% people want it, it deserves to be considered. Well, there is a caveat - if this feature that 10% people want is likely to be detrimental to the remaining 90% then we need to have another conversation. Throughout the thread, I have discussed how multistore could degrade the experience of the people who do not use it - aside from the not insignificant resources devoted to creating the feature, every new feature will take *longer* to create and debug simply because it will have to account for multistore, more complex code is more vulnerable to bugs, there is very likely to be a performance hit because of additional code and additional fields in tables, (I have been reassured a bit on this by Carl and Mike, but I'll say it again anyway) more complex backend UI which is not the easiest one around at the moment anyway, etc. IF anything, this should be done with a fork or a module.
  
• It is debatable whether the feature will benefit even those who use it. I have outlined some disadvantages in this thread (most notably marketing and SEO). Now, I'm not trying to decide for others whether they should use it or not, but I think part of PS's job is surely to educate the userbase and have meaningful conversations around the pros and cons of features that have such wide implications as this.
  

 

You can't imagine (really can't imagine) the numbers of merchants who said me "I'm not sure to make my shop with PrestaShop, because one day if my shop grow up and if I want to have multi shop feature, I won't be able to do it". I'm not saying this rationnal but there it is.

If this feedback comes from ecommerce conferences and the like, and I'd just reject it rightaway -

i) the people who visit are not a fair representation of merchant community at large

ii) even the merchants that visit there often would just pick up the buzzwords and chat around just for the heck of it - I should know, God knows I've been to more conferences than I care to admit

 

If the feedback comes, instead, from more general, reliable sources, then upon hearing that the first question I would ask would be - what do you hope to achieve with multistore, what do you think multistore does...while it may seem hard to do...with your pride in play..."I'm an ecommerce expert. I know what multistore is"...as any strategy consultant will tell you, it's important to ask questions to which you know the answer...it's not about what it is or what you know...it's about what they think it is...if the many discussions I have read are any indication, many times merchants will relay advantages like affiliate selling (already possible in PS), differential pricing (already possible in PS), marketplace (multivendor feature, so...multistore will not help at all), etc etc etc. Often it becomes an entirely different conversation when you understand what they mean when they say they want *multistore*.

[Fabien Serny]

I agree with some points not on others. And I think we could debate this during long hours without being agree.

 

I can't say how many percent merchants will use this feature. At OpenCart, they say less than 10%, maybe on PrestaShop it will be 20%, maybe it will be 5%. I don't know and you can't know

 

I agree on the fact that multistore can degrate user experience and performance if it's badly implemented.

Here, we have tried to make three things :

- Almost no performance impacted (no join table on db) if option is not enabled.

- No user experience user degraded (no tabs or option related to multistore) if option is not enabled

- Not a lof developers work on it (time to developers others importants features or improvments)

 

Please look at the SVN and you'll see that multishop it's just a feature like others

[OC2PS]

I can't say how many percent merchants will use this feature. At OpenCart, they say less than 10%, maybe on PrestaShop it will be 20%, maybe it will be 5%. I don't know and you can't know

And that's why I have repeatedly requested on this thread that

At the very least I want PS to deploy something in 1.5 to scientifically measure the proportion of commercial (not demo or test) multishop deployments (v monoshop ones) so that we can revisit this debate in 6 months and have a more informed and meaningful discussion. A further 6 months down, we could see how many of those that started with multistore actually stuck with it.

It is pretty clear that multistore will be in 1.5. But before 1.5 is released, a scientific usage measurement technique should be deployed.

[Fabien Serny]

As I said, it's just a feature like another one.

If it's well done, I don't think we have to argue about if there will be 5% or 20% who will use it.

If only a very few merchants are using it, it won't bother the one not using it.

[OC2PS]

Are you saying that there will be no impact on development? i.e. that new feature will not take *longer* to create and debug and bugs will not take *longer* to get quashed...

(when I say *longer*, I mean manhours)

 

I am not talking about the developer time devoted to creating the feature, as presumably most of the creation work has more or less been completed. I am also not talking about improving the feature - which would undoubtedly be required over time.

 

Rather I am talking about tons of other required features ... will they not need additional effort to take into account multistore?

[Fabien Serny]

I'm saying I don't think this feature will not take *longer* to create and debug with it than any other features.we added in 1.5

 

Example :

I want to create a new module which only need variables in ps_configuration.

I won't have nothing to do to adapt it to multistore.

Configuration::get and Configuration::updateValue are using context to get the shop configuration.

If I want to have my own database table for the module, I will just have to add an id_shop in my database and retrieve the current id_shop from the context to make my requests.

 

Honestly, I don't think this debate is going anywhere. I asked you several time to on the SVN to look at the code, and you keep arguing without even knowing how the multistore has been implemented. Please intall the 1.5, look around in the code and come back with improvment proposition. It will be more constructive than this discussion I think

[OC2PS]

you keep arguing without even knowing how the multistore has been implemented.

First off, I don't think I am arguing...I am asking questions and raising concerns...I am having to repeat some of them when they are not properly addressed.

 

Secondly, yes, I have absolutely no clue how multistore has been implemented. But whose fault is that? Is there any place on this website where the approach has been explained or discussed? Even so far down the line, PS team haven't even explained what does multistore mean - what would be the elements of the feature.

 

I don't think this debate is going anywhere. I asked you several time to on the SVN to look at the code, and you keep arguing without even knowing how the multistore has been implemented. Please intall the 1.5, look around in the code and come back with improvment proposition.

The problem with that is that since I am not a coder, I won't be able to glean any meaningful insights from the SVN. That's why I am raising conceptual issues and hoping that people associated with the project or, better still, the feature can respond to them and address concerns.

[Fabien Serny]

So, if I understood well, you're not a coder but you're complaining about the fact that it will hypothetically complexify the work of coder without having any experience in this domain ? o_O

I can tell you (being a coder), that multishop won't ask more work to developers to add features.

 

So you're only concern, for me, will be the user experience. Install the SVN version, you'll see that if multishop is not enable the user experience will not be affected.

 

Edit: If you're not a developer, why are you asking us to remove smarty and tell that developers will prefer PHP template instead of template engine ? o_O

[OC2PS]

So, if I understood well, you're not a coder but you're complaining about the fact that it will hypothetically complexify the work of coder without having any experience in this domain ?

Not understood well. Not being a coder does not equal not having experience in the domain. I used to be an information architect before moving into the management domain. I have product-managed and project-managed enough to know likely bottlenecks, resource hogs, potential problem areas, and best practices. I used to program...but that was long ago...in the good old days of Turbo Pascal and Borland C++. Also, I'm not complaining about how much more work developers will have to do...my concern is the potential impact such additional work would have on bug-fixing, new feature implementation and PS releases. If you say there will be no impact, I'll take your word for that, but so far no one had said that.

 

 

 

So you're only concern, for me, will be the user experience.

Depends on how you define user experience. If all you refer to is UI, then no, that's not the only concern. Performance is a big concern. The impact on roadmap and timelines of other features is another major concern. Potential impact on security and bug-proneness due to added level of complexity is another concern.

 

 

 

If you're not a developer, why are you asking us to remove smarty and tell that developers will prefer PHP template instead of template engine ? o_O

It's off topic on this thread, but since you have mentioned it...

 

While I am not a coder, I regularly create templates/themes (e.g. WP, Joomla, phpBB, G3, OC, etc) for my own sites. And I'm sick and tired of having to learn different templating engines for that. Besides, I have studies templating engines in fair detail to have an opinion on the matter.

 

As mentioned on the dedicated thread on the matter, the assertion regarding developer preference was based on numerous discussions with developers over many years and participation in online forums on the topic.

 

And as you admitted yourself in that topic, Prestashop developers do prefer PHP, which I've advocated.

 

So I'm struggling to understand the source of the friction (and do I sense undertones of hostility?)...it's not as if I had asked that you should make PS in Zend.

[Fabien Serny]

Hi,

 

When I said you have no experience, I meant in PHP programming. What I want to say. I mean, I've done some programmation on Python, but I will never tell a real Python programmer how he had to code or what is doing is a dead end. You clearly have experience (and knowledge ) and I think that is you're telling all that, it's because you're really worried about the fact that we are doing something wrong with multishop. And I want you to know that your proposition and ideas are greatly appreciated

 

I confirm you, Multishop option won't make more diffucult the add of features.

This functionnality will not bring more bug or problem than any other feature so don't stay focus on multishop. It's not because you saw some carts where multishop seems to stuck developers that it will be the case of all shops. If you like what you have done until now, keep faith in us. If you have some doubt and you know some developers on the forum, ask them to check the SVN and give you their insight.

 

For the smarty part, I understand now (you have notion of integration). So don't bother what I said about Smarty in my last post

 

Last thing (very important), please do not transform what I said (I don't like that :/). I said "I think many developers in PrestaShop would prefer PHP templating (I'm thinking mostly about Raphael here ^^)". It was not an affirmation and I did not admit anything and I didn't say it was the majority.

Moreover, I think we were talking about if we were starting a new application.

Forget for a moment that PS already has an installed base and existing infrastructure...if you were starting a project from scratch, what would you use and why?

 

I like discuss with people, and share ideas, but I really don't like when people transform my post. It's only a brake to good ideas. I have no hostility , I just want to share ideas without each time say "No I didn't say that". Otherwise It will not be very motivating to participate in this kind of topic...

[OC2PS]

Thanks for addressing concerns. I didn't say PS team are doing something wrong programmatically - I just had concerns from a project and business perspective, and put them forward hoping that these would be discussed and, hopefully, addressed. I never took a technology position.

 

I really don't like when people transform my post.

That was not the intention - I didn't feel like I misquoted you. Perhaps I incorrectly read "many" as "most" in your post.

[Fabien Serny]

No problem, I misread / misunderstand post sometimes too

 

Do not worry, we will continue to make features on PS so it's not our best interest to make something which we will block us for futures developements.

For example, I commited the new module API a few days ago without caring about the multishop feature at all. And the new module API is completely compliant to multistore. So don't worry

[jonten]

Hello,

 

Is it possible to set up different stores and have them managed by companies who then can sell their items on the site? Can each store owner get paid automatically through checkout, or will it be the site administrator that receives the money?

 

Regards

Jonten

[Fabien Serny]

Hi Jonten,

 

If the paiment module are compliant with the multishop option, you will be able to configure your paiement module differently to each shop. So you will be able to choose if each shop owner receive the paiement or if you want that the site administrator receive the paiements.

 

In the case, that the module is not multishop compliant, it will be the site administrator which will receive all the paiements.

[amcmo]

I for one would be very happy for multishop. We operate 6 sites with different target markets across 3 countries. We currently develop all in Shopfactory, though sick of their push to force everyone into a subscription model.

 

We have 2 sites working in OpenCart and don't consider it near as bad as some here have suggested. The multisite works.

 

We would prefer to go Prestashop as it seems more thoroughly developed and better support such as MagneticOne,even though template and add-on costs are hire for Prestashop. The multishop feature is the one that will commit us to Prestashop.